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JBL 4367 White Paper: How Good or Bad or the spec's ?

TitaniumTroy

Well-Known Member
I am curious about this home version of the JBL M2 technology. While spec's don't tell the whole story I would like to see what our audio gurus opinions are. Regarding whether on paper should this be a good speaker or not.

Obviously nothing beats a good listening session, but I don't think too many dealers have these in their show rooms. Not exactly the current flavor of the decade, tall and narrow towers. I'm also not really big on the 80's retro recording studio looks, but hey if it works so be it.

List price is $15,000
http://www.newaudio.it/JBL/4367 JBL (1)/JBL Synthesis 4367 White Paper.pdf
 
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Opinions based on the white paper and reviews:

First off the guy who wrote the review on the Audio Review forum used a ton of false statements based on conceptual perceptions rather than acoustical science or measureable facts. How is a 6" woofer "faster" in the bass than a 15" woofer? the speed of a woofer can be measured in its frequency response and a "faster" woofer can play much higher than a "slower" woofer, but the JBL woofer only operates to about 700Hz, so what's the deal with claiming one woofer is "faster" than another in the bass range? Sorry, that doesn't work for me. His comments about dome tweeters offering an upward arc the horns didn't sound more like a room acoustics discussion than an imaging discussion given much better power response of the JBL system... but, that's just me complaining about a reviewer using imaginary "facts" in a description of a speaker's performance. I would argue he would write that review regardless of how the speakers sounded.

Now to the speakers - These are classic studio monitor designs and should play really loud and the cool tech should allow them to have a good response. Being big they would benefit from being in a larger room and slightly longer listening distances than modern smaller speakers. The 7 foot listening distance in my carefully designed HT wouldn't be ideal. Being horn loaded, the sound will have less susceptibility to side, floor, and ceiling reflections, but rear wall reflections are still a concern (some good diffusors would solve that).

To the design principles - Horns are well known. Big studio monitors are well known. And JBL appears to be trying to reduce the long existing issues with these technologies, like the groovy woofer motor design and the dual diaphragm compression driver. They all make sense and should improve the performance and sound. What I really don't understand enough to have any opinion on is the "DC Bias" applied to the crossover capacitors. I've read white papers on the technology, but it wasn't clear to me what the real world benefits were to the technology. Maybe it is the greatest thing ever, but I don't know. One thing I will say, for $15,000 I would reach out to JBL and have them design a DSP crossover so I could actively bi-amp these speakers and completely eliminate the ills associated with passive crossovers. An active crossover would also allow for some custom voicing to suit my preferences, if necessary.

Are they worth $15K? Maybe. I imagine they sound better than the vast majority of the uber-high-end $15K speakers on the market today. Most of the super high end speakers I've heard were terribly disappointing.
 
Those are very interesting; JBL has obviously been very busy in developing the conventional woofer / compression driver further along toward lower distortion and higher efficiency. The white paper emphasizes the efficiency part, especially with the compression driver. The twin diaphram aspect is interesting, and a direction I did not realize they were headed. It looks to me like they are essentially using the technology of their "ring radiators" such as the 2405H (which I have, but am not using), but doing it with either in-phase or "push pull" twin diaphrams. I don't quite know what to make of their description of the horn as a "wave guide horn". If this were a consumer speaker, I would dismiss it a marketing bullshit, but JBL is not known for exaggeration in their claims. To me, either it is a "wave guide" or a "horn", but it seems like it could not be both at the same time. Maybe I'm trying to overly parse their language!

The woofer seems more traditional but with some updating with the use of a neodymium magnet and dual voice coils which like the compression driver might be working either in-phase or "push pull". They were starting to use this type of magnet when I worked there, and I have one at home which I use to magnetize my screwdrivers and such; it is an extremely powerful magnet for its size. They are still using their traditional pulp cones with Aquaplas sprayed onto the back side of the cone. Again, they make a point of pointing out the increased efficiency and power handing, which I would expect for what is a professional woofer which would take a lot of abuse.

What I did catch with the HF compression driver is the frequency response curve; in many ways it is very traditional in that it is exactly like every other large format compression driver I have ever seen, either from JBL or Altec Lansing (Altec Lansing is essentially JBL in that the "Lansing" in Altec's name is from Jim Lansing of JBL, who worked for Altec in the early years after his initial speaker business collapsed).

The curve is traditional in the sense that there is a huge mid-range hump with the higher range dropping off toward 20kHz. In this sense, it directly contradicts their white paper claim of "wider" frequency response. Yes, it extends to 20Khz, but it is down over 10dB in the process just like every other large format driver made. To make the final frequency response flat (and it is very, very flat in their final system-wide graph), the passive crossover must throw away all of that excess efficiency in the mid range, lowering it down to the level of the 20kHz point. What they are doing is throwing away over 10dB of the efficiency which they worked so hard to achieve in order to gain flat frequency response t0 20kHz. Now, for this type of speaker and its intended audience, this does not really matter since extreme efficiency is not really needed in a smaller room size like in a home or mastering studio. There is efficiency to spare. I do the exact same thing with my Altec Lansing (small format) compression drivers which have a similar frequency response shape, but with less high frequency drop off by virtue of the smaller diaphram, which has less mass. However, by virtue of the fact that I am using active crossovers, I am not actually loosing efficiency since the frequency response shaping I am doing in bringing down the large efficiency hump in the mid range is done electronically in the crossover, so there are no losses in a passive crossover.

In a professional sound reinforcement or motion picture setting, the components in this JBL speaker would likewise be operated with an active crossover and separate power amps for each driver so there would be no loss of efficiency. In a professional setting, I would also bet that this horn would be augmented by a very high frequency compression driver like the 2405, taking over at around 7kHz to counter the high frequency rolloff of the main compression driver.

As to how this speaker sounds, I obviously have not personally heard this particular speaker, but in the 5 years I worked at JBL, I heard everything they had at the time, including the earlier version of this speaker. JBL, like every other speaker company, has a distinctive "house sound" which I can only describe is a certain forwardness in the upper midrange from around 1kHz to maybe 7kHz, along with a very punchy but very well controlled bass. As I type this, I am sitting right in front of my JBL 4412 studio monitors which I use as overblown "computer speakers", and they have this exact sonic signature.

This type of sound works extremely well with most popular music, rock especially, giving it a very forward and alive quality especially at higher volumes. For classical music which I mostly listen to, this type of sound is the polar opposite of what someone would want as it makes things like massed violins in a symphony orchestra sound so forward and aggressive as to be unlistenable. In my Altec Lansing horns which have a similar sound in their natural state, I have labored for years in taming the normally aggressive quality of the horns so that they also sound good with classical music. I would still say though that there is a tradeoff where classical music might sound smoother on a traditional cone-and-dome speaker, but the Altec horns give a "jump factor" which cannot be duplicated by any other driver technology.

So I would guess that this speaker sounds like a JBL speaker normally would, since I cannot see JBL ever giving up their signature sound which everybody expects of the brand. That being the case, one would have to weigh the sound with the type of music (or film soundtrack) which would be making up the majority of listening.

One tendency I have noted with speakers over the past decade or more is the presence of a tipped-up high end (this JBL speaker does not have it fortunately). I have found the recent Klipsch speakers are really aggressive in this respect. If you look at the frequency response graphs in test reports of consumer speakers, there is an alarming majority of them which clearly show a curve which is sometimes as much as 10dB "hot" in the high end in the vicinity of 10kHz. How this trend got started, I don't know, other than perhaps somewhere along the line consumers got used to more high end for home theater applications, and manufacturers furnished it to the point of a virtual high frequency "arms race". I get listening fatigue almost immediately when listening to these speakers, and alarmingly, some very high end speakers have this exact same trait of high end aggressiveness. Or maybe it is just that many people today are deaf in the high end.......

Anyway, that's my take. :thumbsup:
 
What I really don't understand enough to have any opinion on is the "DC Bias" applied to the crossover capacitors.

If they are using electrolytic capacitors in a back-to-back configuration as would be normal with AC signals, a DC bias applied to the center where the two caps meet makes the transfer function more linear. In theory, the AC signal provides the bias (electrolytics are only "a capacitor" when the electrolyte is forward biased), but there is that region near the zero crossing of the signal where small amounts of non-linear behavior can happen as the capacitor gets its initial bias. That is avoided by a permanent forward DC bias, much like the bias on a transistor, or a vacuum tube keeps the devices from entering their non-linear portion of operation.

Most passive crossovers don't do this because obviously it requires a power supply of some sort (although it could be something as simple as a battery which would last a long time since there is no current drain). This technique is used a lot with low level signals in high end gear when electrolytic capacitors are used.

If they are using film capacitors, they would need no DC bias, so if they are using DC on this type of cap, I can only surmise that JBL is loosing its mind.
 
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Thanks Flint and Rammis for taking the time and effort to respond. I have confession to make. I have already heard these speakers at the 2017 AXPONA show in Chicago, with a pair of Revel Ultimates right next to them. Not to mention JBL Everest's at the opposite end of the room. All curtesy of Audio Solutions out of Indy, great no pressure guys. http://theaudiosolutions.com

A friend who has Revel Ultimates, who was with me in the room at the time. Thinks they sound smoother than the JBL's but cannot compete with their dynamics. As for the JBL Everest's their sound was never engaging to me (imaging is flat) plus they list for 60-70k. Audio Solutions say the 4367's last around two weeks and they then someone buys them. If I remember right they are also the #1 Mark Levinson dealer in the country four years running.

Anyway I wanted to hear these JBL's because of my experience with JBL's LSR308's, great holographic/3D imaging, and dynamics. The 4367's did not disappoint my favorite song I heard there on them was Stevie Ray Vaughn's Roughest Place In Town. Somebody at the show said the dynamics would rip your face off.

Wanting to hear more under better than show conditions, I went to Indy about two weeks later. Listening for about 2-3 hours, I felt they imaged similar in many respects as well as my Magnepan 3.6's with ribbon tweeter.

Incredible dynamics, bass/midbass with impact, no compression on loud peaks and no fear of blowing a fuse at high volume, are all things the Magnepan's fall short of.

I pretty much agree with most everything Rammis. said about how they should sound. Plenty of well controlled bass, no upper bass chestiness like my first speakers JBL L96's.

Anyway I laid down a check for $10,000 including tax for their demo pair in black, barely squeezed them and their boxes into a GMC Yukon and took these heavy (135Lbs a piece) and bulky bastards home to Mishawaka IN.

They are my new Reference!
Me trying to sound like Jonathan Vailin.
 
Rammis. and Flint sorry for the deception, but I wanted to get totally unbiased input, thanks.
Troy
 
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Rammis. and Flint sorry for the deception, but I wanted to get totally unbiased input, thanks.
Troy
It never entered my mind whether you had heard them before or not, so I don't feel deceived. :thumbsup:

Speakers with horns, especially horns which cover down below 1kHz will always have dynamics which regular drivers can't touch. There are challenges with horns as I mentioned in my original post, but they can be solved if so inclined.
 
Congrats TT, and:

you-suck-19.gif
 
Holy shit Troy, that's awesome! Can't wait to hear more of your experience once you get them all set up at home.

And yeah, you suck. $10k worth of suck.
 
Anyway I laid down a check for $10,000 including tax for their demo pair in black, barely squeezed them and their boxes into a GMC Yukon and took these heavy (135Lbs a piece) and bulky bastards home to Mishawaka IN.
fainting1.jpg
 
The thought that comes immediately to mind: would love to hear them in a side-by-side comparison with Wardsweb's Cornwall clones.

Call it old-school horns against new-school horns.

Congrats!

Jeff
 
After all the long conversations about the Maggies, I am interested to hear how these new monopole speakers sound in your room. You put a ton of work into getting those planer speakers to rock in your space, most of that work is not necessary or appropriate for these new monitors, what are you going to change?
 
Just a suggestion; try to place your new horns as far out into the room as possible. My Altecs are 7' from the back wall to the front of the speakers in my 30' long room. Without doing this, you will get very flat imaging with no real depth. All speakers seem to have this need, but it is especially important with horns, which are very directional by nature with essentially nothing coming out to the sides and back of the horn.

This link (https://www.soundandvision.com/cont...-lansings-‘voice-theatre’#lLuZhwdDff2ZLwsx.97) shows just how my speakers are placed out into the room and in relation to the listening position. You might have wifely difficulties in placing the speakers that far out if you're forced to use the living room, but you have to ask yourself; what's more important - great imaging or domestic harmony.

I'd vote for great imaging......:wine:
 
Well, I do believe that a hearty, "YOU SUCK!!!" is in order here. Congratulations!
 
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