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Measurements: Love them or Hate them

Alien

Active Member
I love them.

The guys that don't want to or can't understand them, just look at the price tag...more digits means it's better they think.
 

Towen7

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
This is why I gave up on critical listening. The second article concludes that one can only know what accurate is by comparing identical tracks in identical spaces on different speakers. It's the rare bird that has the time and resources to do such a thing. I certainly can't. So if I can't determine what accurate is, I am left to listen to what I enjoy.

Is that a bad thing?
 

milpool

Active Member
The times I get down about how my system will never be perfect, are when I most need to just enjoy it.
 

Rope

Well-Known Member
Famous
There is some things that are measurable that are not audible. Is there some things audible that are not measurable?

Rope
 

Lone Stranger

Well-Known Member
Rope said:
There is some things that are measurable that are not audible. Is there some things audible that are not measurable?

Rope
This question reminds me of a cartoon strip in a newspaper many years ago about a guy working the sound board for a live band and he had his hand on the "suck" controller. The band members were bitching him out. Can't remember what they said to him. I don't think suckiness in sound or music can be measured. :text-lol:
 

Flint

Dog Faced Pony Soldier
Superstar
Many times I have seen people get a little freaked out with my pursuit of perfection. Sometimes when writing or speaking about how to measure, setup, tune, and tweak an audio system they get crazy and start acting like I never actually sit down and enjoy the music. Why can't you do both?

Sure! Some people get all caught up in the gear, collecting, buying, upgrading, and so on. Others get carried away with the tweaking. Sometimes they get so carried away they never settle down to simply enjoy the music, but I don't think that is the norm. I believe one can pursue perfection while also fully enjoying the music - it isn't one of those either/or propositions many think it is.

I love music, it is the only reason I am into this hobby. I enjoy my favorite music on the crappiest gear out there, like the POS factory stereo in my 1998 F150 where I use a cassette adapter to plug in my mobile player and the speakers are disintegrated. But, I also want to be able to hear exactly what is on the source recordings if at all possible, because that is the pinnacle of the listening experience for me. Can't we do both?

The discussion of how to get the best possible sound is not an indication that simply listening and enjoyinh cannot be done as well. On a forum, we can discuss many things, but it is hard to discuss the spiritual high one gets from an incredible listening session. However, one can go on for a long time about how they modified their room to get considerably better sound while sharing measurements taken to show the results of the changes they made. The can discussion scientific facts and theories on getting better sound. They can get into the minutea of the physics, mechanics, electronical principles and psychology of the experience and grow and learn from one another in order to get closer to the aural bliss they desire.

Using science and facts to help guide you through the journey of this hobby is not evidence of lack of pleasure in music. It is a sign of intelligence. Why do anything to your system if you don't have some solid proof, or at least logical evidence, that it will be worth the time, effort, and/or money? Nearly all of my self-ascribed "audiophile" friends and acquaintances toss good money after foolish concepts, like upgrading their $5000 amp to a $6000 amp when their speakers and room acoustics are by far the weakest links in their systems. Look at the myriad of foolish ideas and people we mock and ridicule on this forum all the time! People who pay big dollars for speaker cables, magic blocks of inert wood, tiny little bowls made from blessed crystaline materials which they claim make a night and day difference in the acoustics of their room, people who think the orientation of their wires in relation to the magnetic poles of the Earth, those who will freeze their source components, buy upgraded gear with clock crystals bless by the Dali Lama, and so on... why waste your money like them? People mock Christians for believing in Jesus, but the blond faith in Audiophool nonsense is even more foolish to me... they might as well find a shaman to move in with them and pray over the latent energy of their stereo gear for days prior to each listening session to get better sound.

Measurements are one of the many tools we have at our disposal to get closer to the joy of our musical Shangri La. By mastering the knowledge and use of measurements, by studying what is real and what isn't, by listening with our ears to what our test gear tells us, by repeated experimentation, and by sharing and learning from others what works for them and why, we can get closer to the moment where we put on one of our favorite recordings and our spirits can float away in an out of body experience where the sound is our guide.

What's wrong with that?
 
D

Deleted member 133

Guest
Flint said:
Using science and facts to help guide you through the journey of this hobby is not evidence of lack of pleasure in music. It is a sign of intelligence. Why do anything to your system if you don't have some solid proof, or at least logical evidence, that it will be worth the time, effort, and/or money? Nearly all of my self-ascribed "audiophile" friends and acquaintances toss good money after foolish concepts, like upgrading their $5000 amp to a $6000 amp when their speakers and room acoustics are by far the weakest links in their systems. Look at the myriad of foolish ideas and people we mock and ridicule on this forum all the time! People who pay big dollars for speaker cables, magic blocks of inert wood, tiny little bowls made from blessed crystaline materials which they claim make a night and day difference in the acoustics of their room, people who think the orientation of their wires in relation to the magnetic poles of the Earth, those who will freeze their source components, buy upgraded gear with clock crystals bless by the Dali Lama, and so on... why waste your money like them? People mock Christians for believing in Jesus, but the blond faith in Audiophool nonsense is even more foolish to me... they might as well find a shaman to move in with them and pray over the latent energy of their stereo gear for days prior to each listening session to get better sound.
Freudian slip or a blatant attack on non-brunette/redhead/balds? ;)

Good observations IG.

As I have said in the past, there are huge similarities (at least to me) between religious faith, and faith in audio snake oil. Neither can be assailed by reason (or science) simply because they are faith-based. If someone truly believes that they can (or cannot) hear a difference, then to them it exists and is real. Period. I'm not sure, but my guess is that it would be even harder to shake someone's belief in audio snake oil than it would someone's religious faith. The reason: snake oil salesmen have been much better at using pseudo-science to back their claims, whereas "religion" has either not tried (or tried very hard) or has failed when it has attempted to do so (Intelligent Design being an example that comes to mind.) Beliefs that rely entirely on faith (as opposed to proof) present no real weak point; pseudo-science can be easily disproven. But again, if the underpinning of the belief is faith, then even disproving the pseudo-science may not be sufficient to convert the believer. (And yes, some of what I have just said is perhaps self-contradictory - which happens when I muse out loud in type some time!)

In other words, it's probably far more productive to educate the non-faithful than the die-hard believers - something that you, IG, have proven to be extremely good at over the years as evidenced by all of your highly-educational posts and the responses to them.

And my usual disclaimer: nothing written above is intended to "mock" anyone. I'm simply relating my own observations and opinions and am happy to have them critiqued. I still intend to maintain my self-imposed abstention from discussions on religion (and politics, and...) but in this case the subject matter relates directly to the audio world - as IG has so ably shown.

Jeff
 

Towen7

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
I feel the need to clarify that I'm not ignoring or dismissing the value and importance of measurements and the pursuit of perfection. I meant only to say that I don't have the ability to join in it. It's pretty obvious to me that anyone that is chasing perfection through comparison and measurement is indeed a fan of music.
 

Flint

Dog Faced Pony Soldier
Superstar
I wasn't calling you out, I was addressing the eventual rat-hole hell many on this forum like to go down whenever we start talking about measurements and scientific facts. Too often about twenty posts into a thread like this someone starts trying to belittle the discussion by saying things like, "when do you have time to just enjoy the music?" or, "I spend my time listening to music, not measuring my gear." and such.
 

DIYer

Well-Known Member
Famous
^ I think those or potential of being those have been filtered out when we moved here.
 

Dennie

Well-Known Member
Flint said:
Many times I have seen people get a little freaked out with my pursuit of perfection. Sometimes when writing or speaking about how to measure, setup, tune, and tweak an audio system they get crazy and start acting like I never actually sit down and enjoy the music. Why can't you do both?

Sure! Some people get all caught up in the gear, collecting, buying, upgrading, and so on. Others get carried away with the tweaking. Sometimes they get so carried away they never settle down to simply enjoy the music, but I don't think that is the norm. I believe one can pursue perfection while also fully enjoying the music - it isn't one of those either/or propositions many think it is.

I love music, it is the only reason I am into this hobby. I enjoy my favorite music on the crappiest gear out there, like the POS factory stereo in my 1998 F150 where I use a cassette adapter to plug in my mobile player and the speakers are disintegrated. But, I also want to be able to hear exactly what is on the source recordings if at all possible, because that is the pinnacle of the listening experience for me. Can't we do both?

The discussion of how to get the best possible sound is not an indication that simply listening and enjoyinh cannot be done as well. On a forum, we can discuss many things, but it is hard to discuss the spiritual high one gets from an incredible listening session. However, one can go on for a long time about how they modified their room to get considerably better sound while sharing measurements taken to show the results of the changes they made. The can discussion scientific facts and theories on getting better sound. They can get into the minutea of the physics, mechanics, electronical principles and psychology of the experience and grow and learn from one another in order to get closer to the aural bliss they desire.

Using science and facts to help guide you through the journey of this hobby is not evidence of lack of pleasure in music. It is a sign of intelligence. Why do anything to your system if you don't have some solid proof, or at least logical evidence, that it will be worth the time, effort, and/or money? Nearly all of my self-ascribed "audiophile" friends and acquaintances toss good money after foolish concepts, like upgrading their $5000 amp to a $6000 amp when their speakers and room acoustics are by far the weakest links in their systems. Look at the myriad of foolish ideas and people we mock and ridicule on this forum all the time! People who pay big dollars for speaker cables, magic blocks of inert wood, tiny little bowls made from blessed crystaline materials which they claim make a night and day difference in the acoustics of their room, people who think the orientation of their wires in relation to the magnetic poles of the Earth, those who will freeze their source components, buy upgraded gear with clock crystals bless by the Dali Lama, and so on... why waste your money like them? People mock Christians for believing in Jesus, but the blond faith in Audiophool nonsense is even more foolish to me... they might as well find a shaman to move in with them and pray over the latent energy of their stereo gear for days prior to each listening session to get better sound.

Measurements are one of the many tools we have at our disposal to get closer to the joy of our musical Shangri La. By mastering the knowledge and use of measurements, by studying what is real and what isn't, by listening with our ears to what our test gear tells us, by repeated experimentation, and by sharing and learning from others what works for them and why, we can get closer to the moment where we put on one of our favorite recordings and our spirits can float away in an out of body experience where the sound is our guide.

What's wrong with that?
:text-bravo:



Dennie
 

Alien

Active Member
Well...I believe that musical enjoyment does center around a 3 dimensional degree of accuracy. So I guess how some with the same thought but with a lot of time and money to burn could overwhelm themselves with the accuracy goal...for even more enjoyment.
 

Yesfan70

I'm famous now bitches! vvvvv
Famous
"An audiophile believes that a specific product performs exactly as the manufacturer says it does. He hears what he’s been told he’ll hear, and so has bought into the manufacturer’s advertising claims. Then, along comes a set of measurements that directly contradicts what he’s been told, and thus what he claims to hear. This situation can be embarrassing to the audiophile, even stressful, and the easiest way out of it is to dismiss the measurements altogether"


I don't think Mr. Fritz could have said that any better. That is like going out on a blind date with a woman. You have such a great time on the date. Everything just clicks There's so much you share in common with her, and she's definitely someone you want to see again.

Then you find out she has a penis. :text-nocomment:
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
Yesfan70 said:
That is like going out on a blind date with a woman. You have such a great time on the date. Everything just clicks There's so much you share in common with her, and she's definitely someone you want to see again.

Then you find out she has a penis.
:text-offtopic: Speaking from experience?
 

Yesfan70

I'm famous now bitches! vvvvv
Famous
Remember the Revel F12s I was talking about in my demo thread? I was really smitten with them. We weren't even out of Knoxville and I was telling Ben I could see myself owning a pair of those. Then I got to looking at the measurements in the brochure the store owner gave me. Here they are (copied from the website):

Sensitivity: 90.5dB/w/m
Impedance: 6 Ohms
crossover points (three way design): 575Hz & 3kHz
In room response: +/- 1.0dB 58kHz- 18kHz
LF Extension: -10dB@28Hz, -6dB@40Hz, -3dB@52Hz


This is where my ignorance comes in for measurements. Other speaker measurements I've seen seem to have a much lower extension than the F12s offered, even though the F12s are almost ruler flat from 58Hz to 18kHz. Most measurements are also in an anechoic chamber, so are those measurements taken from that or an average listening room?

When I looked at the measurements, I admit I felt a bit jaded. I wanted to think my hearing was better than that and what was documented, by the brand itself no less, just wasn't what my ears were hearing. I'm one that thinks "the numbers don't lie", and I would still own those speakers in my setup. The F12's LF extension just seems to really drop below 58Hz. The whole thing, if anything, has just made me take a step back and really see what's out there before I plunk down my money.
 
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