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Use the best speaker for the job at hand - size versus bass

Flint

Prodigal Son
Superstar
We recently had a long conversation about the reasons to set a tower speaker to "small" with a 80Hz crossover allowing a subwoofer to handle the bass below 80Hz versus setting it to "Large" and let it play deep with, or without, a subwoofer.

Part of the logic for setting a tower speaker to large is that the specs may claim a bass response to frequencies lower than 80Hz and it seems a waste to have a big speaker not handling the bass. Additional novice intuition suggests that having the tower speaker play the bass at the same time as the subwoofer must be a good thing because bass plus more speakers must be a good thing, right?

I think a quick consideration of the physics involved with reproducing bass is worth some mental energy.

Just basic physics insists that to produce a given SPL at a frequency half of another frequency requires the cone of the woofer move twice as far as the higher frequency. For example, if the cone moves 1mm at 100Hz to generate X SPL, then it will have to move 2mm at 50Hz to produce X SPL and 4mm at 25Hz to produce X SPL.

However, if a woofer has double the cone area, then the excursion necessary to generate the same SPL is cut in half - so a 6.5 inch woofer with a cone area of 140 cm2 may have to move 1mm to generate X SPL at 100Hz, but a larger 9.5 inch woofer with double the cone area of 280 cm2 only has to move 0.5mm to generate the same SPL at 100Hz.

Obviously, operating two woofers in parallel will accomplish the same thing - reducing the excursion by half to generate a given loudness at a specific frequency.

So, that should be easy to comprehend - a large woofer needs to move less than a small woofer to create bass. Also, lots of woofers producing the same signal will need to move less for a given SPL than a single woofer.


Consider the distortion a woofer generates... most of the distortions are from mechanical nonlinearities and the rest tend to be caused by nonlinearities in the magnetic field the voice coil is passing through as it moves in and out. The more excursion a woofer is forced to take, the greater the distortions will be in relation to the intended signal. In other words, higher SPLs equal higher distortion as a percentage of the signal. This is why you can often hear a woofer reaching its limits before you push it hard enough to blow the voicecoil. Summarizing, more cone motion equals more distortion.

So, if one wants clean, deep, solid, non-distorted bass. adding woofers or increasing the woofer size of the creating the bass is an obvious solution. Also, better woofers can play cleaner at high SPLs than cheaper woofers, even if they are the same size - but it can be very costly to get significantly better output from the same sized cone. That's why you can go to Parts Express and buy a 15" woofer for $20 or another for $500.

Now, in a home system, you may have a tower speaker with two 6.5 inch woofers which operate below 300Hz down to their limits at 40Hz. You may also have a 15 inch subwoofer which can operate well from 120Hz down to below 20Hz. Which woofer would you want producing 60Hz in your room? Well, for me it is a no brainer - go with the 15 inch woofer. However, the 15 inch subwoofer probably isn't designed for great fidelity above 200Hz, so the 6.5 inch woofers are much better in that range. So, given the option, setting the tower with 6.5 inch woofers to "small" with a 80Hz crossover will net the best performance in the frequency range below 100Hz. It'll definitely net you lower distortion and the best controlled output. And, since we generally cannot hear stereo imaging at frequencies below 100Hz in a normal sized room, there is no benefit to the stereo effect by having the towers produce lower bass.

So, in most cases (there are clearly exceptions), it makes sense to set a crossover on main speakers who don't have larger woofers or tons of woofers to something around 80Hz if you also happen to have a good large subwoofer.
 
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The next thing to consider is placement. In most rooms, the placement of the woofer generating sound below about 100Hz, or so, will very significantly impact the performance at the listening position. All of the acoustical issues a typical home theater space bring to the table are often the biggest problems we face in our rigs. So, if one is unable to dedicate money, space, and aesthetics to addressing bass issues in a room, it makes sense to focus on placement of a subwoofer to get the best performance acoustically.

Often the best location for a subwoofer is nowhere close to the ideal placement for a pair of stereo speakers which must generate a convincing stereo soundstage. If you are willing to put the time and effort into finding the ideal place for a subwoofer to get the best performance, why also ask the stereo speakers, which are typically not in a good place for bass performance, to also operate in the range a subwoofer is better at performing in? Why kill yourself on sub placement if you are going to ask your mains to operate down to 40Hz? Let the sub do its job as best it can and let your main speakers do their job.
 
We recently had a long conversation about the reasons to set a tower speaker to "small" with a 80Hz crossover allowing a subwoofer to handle the bass below 80Hz versus setting it to "Large" and let it play deep with, or without, a subwoofer.

Part of the logic for setting a tower speaker to large is that the specs may claim a bass response to frequencies lower than 80Hz and it seems a waste to have a big speaker not handling the bass. Additional intuition suggests that having the tower speaker play the bass at the same time as the subwoofer must be a good thing because bass and more speakers much be a good thing, right?

I think a quick consideration of the physics involved with reproducing bass is worth some mental energy.

Just basic physics insists that to produce a given SPL at a frequency half of another frequency requires the cone of the woofer move twice as far as the higher frequency. So, if the cone moves 1mm at 100Hz to generate X SPL, then it will have to move 2mm at 50Hz to produce X SPL and 4mm at 25Hz to produce X SPL.

However, if a woofer has double the cone area, then the excursion necessary to generate the same SPL is cut in half - so a 6.5 inch woofer with a cone area of 140 cm2 may have to move 1mm to generate X SPL at 100Hz, but a larger 9.5 inch woofer with double the cone area only has to move 0.5mm to generate the same SPL at 100Hz.

Obviously, operating two woofers in parallel will accomplish the same thing - reducing the excursion by half to generate a given loudness at a specific frequency.

So, that should be easy to comprehend - a large woofer needs to move less than a small woofer to create bass.


Consider the distortion a woofer generates... most of the distortions are from mechanical nonlinearities and the rest tend to be caused by nonlinearities in the magnetic field the voice coil is passing through as it moves in and out. The more excursion a woofer is forced to take, the greater the distortions will be in relation to the intended signal. In other words, higher SPLs equal higher distortion as a percentage of the signal. This is why you can often hear a woofer reaching its limits before you push it hard enough to blow the voicecoil.

So, if one wants clean, deep, solid, non-distorted bass. adding woofers or increasing the woofer size of the creating the bass is an obvious solution. Also, better woofers can play cleaner at high SPLs than cheaper woofers, even if they are the same size - but it can be very costly to get significantly better output from the same sized cone. That's why you can go to Parts Express and buy a 15" woofer for $20 or another for $500.

Now, in a home system, you may have a tower speaker with two 6.5 inch woofers which operate below 300Hz down to their limits at 40Hz. You may also have a 15 inch subwoofer which can operate well from 120Hz down to below 20Hz. Which woofer would you want producing 60Hz in your room? Well, for me it is a no brainer - go with the 15 inch woofer. However, the 15 inch subwoofer probably isn't designed for great fidelity above 200Hz, so the 6.5 inch woofers are much better in that range. So, given the option, setting the tower with 6.5 inch woofers to "small" with a 80Hz crossover will net the best performance in the frequency range below 100Hz. It'll definitely net you lower distortion and the best controlled output. And, since we generally cannot hear stereo imaging at frequencies below 100Hz in a normal sized room, there is no benefit to the stereo effect by having the towers produce lower bass.

So, in most cases (there are clearly exceptions), it makes sense to set a crossover on main speakers who don't have larger woofers or tons of woofers to something around 80Hz if you also happen to have a good large subwoofer.
You, sir are a national treasure and should be treated as such!
 
Then, when considering playing both the mains and the sub in the same range with the same signal you have to take into account the phase differences between the two speakers. There are two causes of phase variation, one you can definitely control which is the distance of the woofer from the listener's ears, the other is not controllable and is the natural phase shift which occurs in the woofer/cabinet combination. In some cases a vented speaker can be plugged to reduce the rate of phase shift as the frequency gets lower.

So, playing a common signal in two different models of speakers is inherently a flawed concept because not only are they not likely to be the exact same distance from the listener's ears, but one speaker is likely to have a different phase shift from the other in the common frequency range and thus cancellations and contributions will cause what is know as a comb filter where one frequency will become practically inaudible and another adjacent frequency will be far too loud. For sounds like explosions, gunshots, and even drums, the comb filter effect may not matter because as long as there is a rumble/thud you are okay. But, if the audio content has pitch based sound, like an organ, bass guitar, synthesizer, or even a human voice, the cancellations may fall on some critical pitches and the sympathetic contributions might fall on other critical pitches and you will hear music where one bass note might rumble the crap out of the room and the next bass note isn't even perceptible.

Given this very obvious and audible problem, it makes logical sense to not ask two disparate speakers to operate in the same frequency range. Bass isn't just some room energy that isn't impacted by phase, nodes, modes, and distortions. Just adding more speakers to that range is rarely a good idea - unless they perfectly match. This is why my advice to people wanting to upgrade their subwoofer performance either buy a larger, better subwoofer to replace their older model, or to add an additional sub of the exact same model as the older sub. Mixing and matching subs is a bad idea.

So... I hope that helps.
 
That's not at all what I meant. You are learning and may have seen some terrible misinformation elsewhere.

I wrote this thread because of how many people were learning something new.
Thank you for taking the time to type this all up. I've learned a ton from you and everyone else that posts on this forum.
 
I'd say I'm inclined to give this a try but I can't. I've been living with it for 3-4 years.

My mains are Dynaudio Contour 3.4 LE.

2758-thickbox_dm.jpg


Their specs can be found here.

I've had them set to Small and crossed to my subs at 100Hz since I bought them. Recently I did experiment with the opposite approach. I may have noticed the smallest of differences but it wasn't an improvement in any sense. So back to Small/100Hz they went.

All of this is to say I can personally vouch for Flint's suggestions here in this thread and in the "What We Learned From Br..." ...the other thread.
 
We can also look at how a mid/woofer attempting to produce deep bass and midrange at the same time causes additional distortion in the form of doppler distortion in the upper frequency range. We all know what doppler distortion is, it is best known for how it make a train horn sound to have a higher pitch as the train is approaching you and a lower tone as the train moves away from you. If a woofer is moving very dramatically attempting to produce deep bass while also trying to reproduce the subtle midrange, those midrange pitches will be bending higher as the cone moves towards you then those same pitches will bend lower as the cone moves away from you. It is not extremely easy to hear this doppler distortion in the same way a train presents it, but it does muddy the sound and make the midrange sloppier and less clear and precise.

Thus, especially if your main speakers are two-way designed with a tweeter and a mid-woofer (even two mid-woofers as in a MTM design), it is a VERY good idea to filter out the deep bass from the mains in order to clean up the midrange - even if the bass from the mains seems to be solid and strong.

This single form of distortion has been the downfall of many outstanding HT systems when I visit them. People will take their super high end 2-way bookshelf speaker which has solid output to 40Hz and set the crossover as low as possible or even set them to "large" in the receiver and let them rip. Sure, the main speaker is rocking, but the midrange isn't nearly as clear as it could be because that little woofer is killing itself to produce moderate to high SPLs at 40Hz while also attempting to get 2,000Hz or higher perfect. A classic example is the amazing Dynaudio C1. This little speaker is stunning for its size, but if is vastly superior if one sets it to "small" and has a crossover to filter out the bass. Just because it is impressive at 50hz doesn't mean your subwoofer isn't 100x more impressive at 50Hz. Let the right woofer do the job.
 
Now, there are still situation where this advice doesn't make sense. For instance, a solid and simple stereo setup with a really good pair of two-way bookshelf speakers can sound amazing for stereo listening, even at high SPLs. This can be due to the simplicity of the setup, the lack of issues with properly configuring a more complex setup, the use of a poorly performing sub (for whatever reason) and dumb mistakes like cranking the hell out of the subwoofer because you want to always hear it no matter what. Another good example is in a room where most of the bass acoustics issues have been remedied and the SPLs being demanded are not all that terribly high.

For instance, in Heeman's theater the bass issues common in pretty much every HT out there have been addressed with extremely massive amounts of bass trapping in the corners, a drop ceiling for more bass trapping, and non-parallel walls. His room is very good for great bass from a pair of main speakers regardless of their placement, so getting full on stereo sub-bass from the mains is possible. However, his little Dynaudio C1 speakers with their amazing 6" woofers simply could not generate the output he wanted and still do well overall. So, set them to "small" and put a sub on the bass. Even better, because his room acoustics are so amazing, build some bass bins to take over from 225Hz downward and really free up those little 6" woofers to kick ass in the critical midrange where they shine the most. Now his system is killer. AND... even with stunningly state of the art bass bins which can operate to well below 30hz without any stress, we discovered that crossing them over at 40Hz to his massive subwoofers which can blow the doors off at 20hz. The result is a system where stereo music can be heard without any limitation on frequency response, dynamics, or balance. Can it be improved? Sure, but it is so much better than most HTs because it is designed to make the most of each speaker.
 
Here's a quick reference of average cone areas for different woofer diameters.

130 cm2 for a 6.5" woofer
225 cm2 for a 8" woofer
330 cm2 for a 10" woofer
520 cm2 for a 12" woofer
890 cm2 for a 15" woofer
1168 cm2 for a 18" woofer​

So, in order to get the same cone excursion for a given frequency and SPL as a 15" woofer, you'd need more than six 6.5" woofers.

If you have two 15" subwoofers (as I know many of you do), then it would take nearly fourteen 6.5" woofers to produce the same output at the same excursion levels.

This doesn't even take into account the electrical and mechanical limitations of the smaller woofers over the larger ones. Large woofers tend to be designed from the ground up operate best in the lowest frequencies. So, they tend to have very low resonance frequencies and longer excursion limits which helps them perform better at low frequencies - but it makes them less ideal for midrange frequencies. Meanwhile, most small woofers are designed specifically for upper bass and midrange which calls for a tighter suspension, higher resonant frequencies, and lesser excursion limits. In fact, the best cone midrange units have "underhung" voicecoils which greatly limit excursion, but kick ass at improving the midrange performance and reducing distortion.

So, even if I were to put fourteen 6.5" woofers into a speaker system, that doesn't mean they could produce decent bass below 40Hz if they are not designed to go that low in the first place.

So, we are back to where I started - let the right driver do the work as it was designed to do.
 
That's not at all what I meant. You are learning and may have seen some terrible misinformation elsewhere.

I wrote this thread because of how many people were learning something new.
Oh I was totally just being tongue in cheek
 
So who makes great subwoofers? I know about PSA, HSU, and SVS. What other company's are worth looking at? Or should I stick with three I mentioned?
 
So who makes great subwoofers? I know about PSA, HSU, and SVS. What other company's are worth looking at? Or should I stick with three I mentioned?

Some rules of thumb -
  1. Larger drivers tend to be better, and getting a small woofer to perform as good as a larger model costs significantly more to accomplish. However, the woofers in the brands mentions are about as good as you can get, so good luck finding a smaller one which performs better.
  2. Larger cabinets are necessary for larger drivers, so don't try to cut corners and get a smaller sub box which claims to play to very low frequencies. Subwoofers with small cabinets can sound decent, but they won't play super deep very well, and if they do attempt to force the bass to exist with built-in EQ boosts in the sub frequencies (which they often have), that means reduced peak SPL and increased distortion. It is a serious compromise to go with a small sub if you are seeking the best.
  3. Amp Power isn't nearly as important as it is often made out to be, especially with large subs in large cabinets. If you go with a small cabinet subwoofer, then it will require a larger amp to play as loud in the deep bass as the larger sub, but that also means more distortion and stress on the woofer, so just worry about the first two items above.

I prefer PSA first, with SVS second. Hsu was selling voodoo magic audiophile BS a few years ago (mid-bass-sub?? What???), so I wrote them off as nonsense. That doesn't mean their subs suck, but I just don't trust them anymore.

I am not a fan of most of the other brands until you get into powered recording studio subwoofers. But those tend to be expensive for reasons related to configurability and reliability which most home users don't need to pay for.
 
130 cm2 for a 6.5" woofer
225 cm2 for a 8" woofer
330 cm2 for a 10" woofer
520 cm2 for a 12" woofer
890 cm2 for a 15" woofer
1168 cm2 for a 18" woofer
Out of genuine curiosity, why would you combine metric and imperial measurements? Why not say 139 square inches for a 15 inch woofer or 1168cm2 for a 38cm woofer?
 
Out of genuine curiosity, why would you combine metric and imperial measurements? Why not say 139 square inches for a 15 inch woofer or 1168cm2 for a 38cm woofer?

Because all of the spec sheets are in metric, but in our heads we all know the traditional diameters. I didn't want to convert either.
 
So who makes great subwoofers? I know about PSA, HSU, and SVS. What other company's are worth looking at? Or should I stick with three I mentioned?
I'm not sure your budget but I like PSA for sure and the 5 year warranty, customer service and USA. I'm not sure if tax free is going to be anymore out of state. But I have heard DIY can be pretty awesome.
 
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