What would you do?

[Snake Doctor]

I have a ATI505 amp and the left speaker connection has gone out, I checked to see if it was a fuse, no such luck. This is the 3rd or 4th time I have had to take the amp in for repair. However, I am not so sure it is worth the cost of evaluation, parts and labor. So this is going to be a multi-question thread.

All of you most likely know I am an amateur at the lowest level in knowledge, however I know what I like in audio when I hear it and video when I see it. So please be patient with me...

The way I understand it is an amplifier runs wide open, meaning there isn't a way to control the volume on the amp so it is the prepro's job to contol how much signal gets to the amp and how the sound is translated so the speakers deliver DTS/Dolby Digital and now ATMOS (which I do not understand. I thought Atmos was audio only until I was at Costco and saw OLED with and without Atmos.)

So if that is true, it doesn't matter what amp I buy, but I need to know how many speakers it will support at what amps and where they are located....front left, center, front right, left effect, right effect, left surround, right surround, and perhaps way in the back speakers. I am not sure where Atmos comes in (ceiling?) or how it will improve the sound.

Let's say I get an amp that is 11 channels plus Atmos and want to run it on 5 or 7 channels until I get a new prepro, is that a problem? Is there a preference between new and rebuilt (refurbished)? Then I wait a couple of years and decide to get an OLED TV and want to upgrade my prepro to distribute sound to all of the channels that my amp can handle, is there a problem of any kind?

I have had separates for years. They cost more then than an AVR, is the cost of buying an amp and a preamp vs a AVR worth the difference in cost? According to Sound & Vision I can get one hella'va AVR for $2,500. If you read the October 2017 issue a ONKYO PR-RZ5100 Surround reference processor is $2,399. ( I am sure it can be purchased on line for less). Plus I need to get an amp. (What do you guys have against ONKYO?)

So here I am at a crossroads and I need to decide which way to go. As I have told you before I do not get new (to me) equipment often, but when I do I want to make sure I get the very best product for the $$ even if I have to wait several years between purchases.

Which direction is the better for sound & vision?

Or should I just have the ATI repaired?

 

[Snake Doctor]

One other thing, price is an issue so, I do not see a way not to have the amp repaired. But, I need to decide now what I want to do going forward and start putting money aside.

 

[Randy]

There are a ton of factors/ things to consider in your question above.

What do you want your system to do?

Do you have the media or means of supplying content compatible with all the features?

Atmos is surround processing, it is an expansion (for lack of better terms) of Dolby. Its simply surround processing that TV is capable of handling, but how well?

Running 5-7 channels of an 11 channel amp should cause no problems, but you are paying for all of those channels and amps come in all colors and flavors of apples and oranges. 1 may not compare directly to another.

That ATI is an absolute beast, I have the same amp, I dont know how much it would cost to fix, or why yours has had to be fixed so many times, but I cant imagine not repairing mine unless it was half or so of replacement cost.

 

[heeman]

I am waiting for our resident ATI expert to chime in...............................

 

[Towen7]

... I need to know how many speakers it will support at what amps and where they are located....front left, center, front right, left effect, right effect, left surround, right surround, and perhaps way in the back speakers. I am not sure where Atmos comes in (ceiling?) or how it will improve the sound.

The first thing you need to determine is how many channels of amplification you need. You need one channel for each of your speakers, including any Atmos. You can add more channels later should the need arise.

The next thing to determine is how many separate amplifier chassis you want/need. Not all of the channels need to be in the same amplifier chassis and not all the channels in the chassis have to have an input.

For example you can have a five channel amplifier and only connect one, two, three, or four channels.
Surround and Atmos channels are usually not critical so many people choose a higher quality amp for the front L/C/R channels and a less powerful amp for surround/Atmos duty.

Let's say I get an amp that is 11 channels plus Atmos and want to run it on 5 or 7 channels until I get a new prepro, is that a problem?

That's fine. There will be some amount of energy wasted on the unused channels.

Is there a preference between new and rebuilt (refurbished)?

That's a decision you have to make based on your budget and risk tolerance. I bought a refurbished prepro once and it's been in the shop multiple times. That probably says more about Onlyo than refurbished units in general.

Then I wait a couple of years and decide to get an OLED TV and want to upgrade my prepro to distribute sound to all of the channels that my amp can handle, is there a problem of any kind?

As stated before. Not all channels of an amp have to be connected.

I have had separates for years. They cost more then than an AVR, is the cost of buying an amp and a preamp vs a AVR worth the difference in cost? According to Sound & Vision I can get one hella'va AVR for $2,500. If you read the October 2017 issue a ONKYO PR-RZ5100 Surround reference processor is $2,399. ( I am sure it can be purchased on line for less).

I believe that most people wont hear a significant difference between a good AVR and separates. Whether that difference is worth the cost can't really be answered by anyone but you.

Plus I need to get an amp. (What do you guys have against ONKYO?)

I've had my Onkyo in for repair several times. I know many other people that have had to have their Onkyo stuff repaired too. A few of the local Onkyo/Integra dealers that I trust have horror stories about their products and support. I'm sure more people have had great luck than have had bad luck but I wont buy another Onkyo. That's just me though.

So here I am at a crossroads and I need to decide which way to go. As I have told you before I do not get new (to me) equipment often, but when I do I want to make sure I get the very best product for the $$ even if I have to wait several years between purchases.

Which direction is the better for sound & vision?

You muddy the water you try to factor value for money. Because that depends on your preferences and perceptions.

Or should I just have the ATI repaired?

Honestly, if it were me... Knowing ATI's reputation for high quality. I'd have the amp repaired.

 

[Snake Doctor]

For example you can have a five channel amplifier and only connect one, two, three, or four channels.
Surround and Atmos channels are usually not critical so many people choose a higher quality amp for the front L/C/R channels and a less powerful amp for surround/Atmos duty.

So you would have two or more amps that would be dedicated to specific speakers? How does that configuration work? You would need a prepro or something to control the output. Wouldn't the cost be prohibitive?

Example, I have the standard 5 speaker configration. However, I have two effect speakers near the ceiling which have not been hooked up since I got the prepro & amp. How would you bring the two speakers into the equation?

 

[Snake Doctor]

I believe that most people wont hear a significant difference between a good AVR and separates. Whether that difference is worth the cost can't really be answered by anyone but you.

I have very good speakers, after doing some reading, listening and asking questions, I came to the conclusion that I wasn't doing the speakers justice by going with an AVR so I moved to separates. Did I hear a difference? I thought so, but that could be wanting to hear something different. When I was in audio stores the difference in great sound vs. good was going through separates. Now I am at a point when I start to upgrade I will do it a piece at a time, most likely prepro then amp. Or go with AVR which be one piece, one purchase.

I am curious what do you consider a good AVR?

 

[Towen7]

Amplifiers come in many configurations. For example the Monoprice Monolith amps come as 2 channel, 3 channel, 5 channel, or 7 channel. The number of amps doesn’t matter you simply connect the prepro output to the amp input.

In your example you need 7 channels. You can get a single 7 channel model ... or a 5 and a 2 channel model.

 

[Snake Doctor]

You muddy the water you try to factor value for money. Because that depends on your preferences and perceptions.

You are so very very right on that statement, I am in muddy waters.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Did you mean you have the ATI 1505 rather than 505? I'm not familiar with a 505 unless its extremely old. If you meant the 1505, I would opt to get it fixed since its a very good amp (I have the 1504). There are fuses on the top of the amp for the DC power rails in case you haven't checked those.

Shipping the amp might cost a bit if you live far from Los Angeles, but that amp is basically simple to repair, and they're repaired about 50 feet from my office. You might call ATI to get an idea on the cost of repair.

 

[Snake Doctor]

Did you mean you have the ATI 1505 rather than 505? I'm not familiar with a 505 unless its extremely old. If you meant the 1505, I would opt to get it fixed since its a very good amp (I have the 1504). There are fuses on the top of the amp for the DC power rails in case you haven't checked those.

Shipping the amp might cost a bit if you live far from Los Angeles, but that amp is basically simple to repair, and they're repaired about 50 feet from my office. You might call ATI to get an idea on the cost of repair.

Towen7 agrees with you, so I am going that route. I checked the fuses at once they were okay, there is a place in town that will make the repair. It is the ATI 1505 sorry for the typo I bought it used and this will be the third time it will be in the shop, that was the reason I was so down on it. When working it is great, I checked the Monoprice Monolith amps and couldn't believe the costs were more reasonable then I would have thought. I am going to try that route, repair the ATI and get another but smaller amp.

 

[Snake Doctor]

For example you can have a five channel amplifier and only connect one, two, three, or four channels.
Surround and Atmos channels are usually not critical so many people choose a higher quality amp for the front L/C/R channels and a less powerful amp for surround/Atmos duty.

One more question, how do I determine how powerful of an amp I would need for surround/Atmos duty? I am going the way you suggested, repair the ATI and get smaller amps for specific speakers.

 

[Dentman]

Depending on what failed I'd be suspect of whoever is doing those repairs and what parts are being used. I'd send it to ATI and get tghe reassurance that it's being repaired to spec with top quality parts.
3 repairs sets off alarm bells for me.

 

[mcad64]

Depending on what failed I'd be suspect of whoever is doing those repairs and what parts are being used. I'd send it to ATI and get tghe reassurance that it's being repaired to spec with top quality parts.
3 repairs sets off alarm bells for me.

^^^^^What Dent said times 10 !!

 

[heeman]

Did they tell you what the failure mode and root cause of the first few repairs??

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

^^^^^What Dent said times 10 !!

I agree!!!! It is EXTREMELY important that solid state gear like this be repaired with the exact parts which were designed into the unit in the first place. Independent repair shops are more likely than not to use generic solid state devices as replacements which they deem "close enough", but I have found that these generic parts cause problems down the road and result in failures. That might be the reason your amp failed three times.

Indeed, we have had huge problems even with the same part number of a semiconductor, but made by different manufacturers.

If the amp is repaired at ATI, it is going to be repaired by an engineer, not some technician who's trying to reach some quota. Not trying necessarily to drum up business for ATI, but the simple fact is that is the best way to make sure the repair is done with the actual factory parts by someone who knows amps inside out.

 

[Deleted member 133]

One more question, how do I determine how powerful of an amp I would need for surround/Atmos duty? I am going the way you suggested, repair the ATI and get smaller amps for specific speakers.

Take this for what it's worth...

I've matched (speakers and amps) my five "main" channels: F L/C/R and S L/R. While there's a lot going on in the side channels during some movies, it's really because I have a number of 5.1 music discs where there's an equal amount going on in all 5 channels. For the majority of my listening yes the surrounds could use "less" but because I could, I did.

For the "presence" channels (R L/R) I've gone with small bookshelf speakers (Paradigm Titans) and half the power - but I could easily have gone half that again. So 200wpc for the main channels and 50wpc for the presence would be plenty in my case. There's just not a lot of full-range stuff happening back there to warrant more.

I don't have Atmos, but if I did I'd follow the same rule-of-thumb as for the rears, and probably pull a 50wpc NAD stereo amp out of storage to look after it.

Your set-up / listening preferences might dictate different.

Jeff

 

[Flint]

For the extra Atmos effects channels, I wouldn't worry about size or output of the amp. Assuming the speakers you are using have average or better efficiency (rated as sensitivity per Volt or Watt), you will be fine with any amp capable of producing at least 50 watts into the speaker's rated impedance.

So, if the speakers are rated to produce 88dB SPL at 1M when receiving 1W or 2.83V, then with 50 Watts the speakers will produce 105dB SPL at 1M, or about 99dB SPL at 2M, which should be more than enough for nearly all situations. If you get a small amp, even a digital amp, which can generate 50W to 125W, you are good to go.

 

[Flint]

For example, at the lower cost range, the Dayton Audio amp below would be fine for two speakers:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-apa102-class-d-stereo-60-wpc-amplifier-auto-on--300-591

But, if you want to spend more and get a more reputable brand, check these out:

Mono:
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html

Stereo:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAZAMPV3 (I have four of these in my HT rig)
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAC275V2

If you have money and want to buy a serious amp, while it might be seen as overkill, it is perfectly fine as well. We are all enamored by the MonoPrice Monolith amps.

 

[Snake Doctor]

Did they tell you what the failure mode and root cause of the first few repairs??

They did but I don't remember what it was, I was just happy to get it back working. I know, that isn't the smartest thing to do, so next time I will keep notes.