Hello

[Tman72]

Hello everyone 1st post here ....... I have an old Onkyo tx sr 805 , I'm currently using an Anthem MCA 3 ( obviously for the front channels) and using the receiver to power the surrounds . I just purchased a Sunfire Cinema Grand Series II 5 channel amp to compare/ possibly replace the Anthem and was toying with the idea of replacing the Onkyo with an Emotiva UMC-200 . What do you guys think ? Do you think I'll notice a difference between the Anthem amp and the Sunfire? Will the Emotiva be an upgrade over the Onkyo?

Thanks for any feedback

 

[PaulyT]

Welcome Tman, glad you're here!

I don't have a lot to contribute to your question as I have little or no experience with any of that gear - the closest I have is an (also older) onkyo 885. I think the onkyo amps in the older models were actually more respected than the newer ones...

What sort of speakers are you running - is your avatar indicative of you gear? If so - sweet!

Conventional wisdom 'round here is that acoustic treatments and speakers will make a much larger difference in sound than amps and processors. Sounds like you've got some quality stuff, though.

 

[Zing]

Welcome aboard, Tman. It's good to have you here.

The conventional wisdom around here is that electronics have the least significant impact on the sound you hear. Speakers - followed very closely by the space they're in (your listening room/HT) - have the largest impact. Having said that, you didn't mention what kind of speakers you're using. That information may help others offer their opinions about whether or not you'll notice any difference between the amps.



*EDIT* GMTA, eh Pauly?

 

[Deleted member 133]

What they said but...

I think you've asked a few questions and perhaps only had one (and a half) of them answered.

Perhaps to paraphrase you are looking for

1. A comparison between the two amps;

2. A comparison between the pre-amp section of your Onkyo and the Emotiva; and

3. Perhaps how to best mix and match.

First off, I am of that same conventional wisdom regarding amps (actually most electronics), speakers, and environment. Pauly and Zing have already commented on / raised questions regarding the last two. However with respect to the amps this is more of an apples and oranges question than most.

You're comparing a 5 channel amp (Sunfire) to a 2 channel amp (Anthem) in combination with the center and surround amps from your receiver. I think the very powerful Sunfire (which can handle some very low impedances - in case that's what your speakers will be throwing at it) will eliminate any question about "enough power" from your vocabulary.

In addition the Anthem is far more "conventional" an amp than the Sunfire - which uses Bob Carver's "tracking downconverter" power supply. My "conventional wisdom" that all "conventional amps" not driven beyond their power limitations, and which are not malfunctioning, sound essentially the same, might be stretched just a bit in this case. I don't think that there will be a difference in sound but that amp carries a much higher than usual distortion rating of 0.5%. Still very low / negligible. And while I've heard (and still use) Carver-designed "conventional" amps, I've really never put one of his tracking downconverter amps through its paces.

Regardless, I'd go with the Sunfire over the Anthem / receiver combo.

Comparing the Onkyo and Emotiva is also a little different in that the last is a just-released current-generation "budget" pre-amp. Compare the feature sets of what you have - with the E. In any case for $600 there's not a huge risk here. Personally I'd also seriously consider Outlaw's same-priced competitor pre-amp as well.

An Outlaw Model 975 and the Sunfire amp would make a very nice combo.

A big improvement in sound (at normal listening levels) over what you currently have? I doubt it very much.

Features and the ability to play just about any type of speaker at very high volumes is what the new combo would have.

Hope that helps.

Jeff

 

[Rope]

:text-welcomeconfetti:
If the amplifier you're using has a flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and is not clipped, a new amplifier will have no sonic impact on your system.

Rope

 

[Tman72]

Thanks for the greetings everyone!

Zing/PaulyT I am running Dynaudios all around and since I'm sure you are all aware they are 4ohm speakers with relatively low sensitivity which is why I decided to go with an amp . I should have mentioned this duh!

Since now I have a 5 channel amp I was also contemplating a dedicated pre pro like the Emotiva or the Outlaw like Jeff suggested ...thanks Jeff!

I'm sure I won't see much of a difference in SQ in the new amp but maybe more power/ stability in lower impedance draws.

I went on the S&V forums and it's like a ghost town ? Everyone is here , I haven't been on the forums since 2009 or so ..... it's nice to see all the familiar names again and thanks for the feedback everyone!

 

[DIYer]

Speakers - followed very closely by the space they're in (your listening room/HT) - have the largest impact.

Not that I enjoy contradicting you, Zing, but I would reverse that order (room acoustics followed by speakers). It's mainly because I've listened to high quality speakers in an acoustically poor room and they sounded bad, whereas I've listened to mid range speakers in a well treated room and they sounded better to me than the former in terms of imaging, detail and overall pleasantness of sound. :twocents-mytwocents:

 

[Flint]

Good enough power is 75 watts. More power is useful for difficult speakers, having parties / showing off, and truly dynamic recordings (very rare these days). I like having more power because then I never have to question the fact that I have enough. But more than 75 or 100 watts is often just pleasant and nice, but not necessary for most real life situations.

A good amp is one that you never know is there. It shouldn't be heard. It should never be known to anyone that there is even an amp there. Amps should be magical black boxes that appear to do nothing other than making speakers work. Most good amps fit that requirement, but I would never upgrade a perfectly functioning good amp with another unless there was some unique problem that needed to be solved, like physical size limitations after a rearrangement, or such. I often mock my audiophile friends who will replace their amps every 4 to 6 months on their very poorly setup audiophile rooms and who absolutely refuse to follow the most basic laws of physics concerning speaker placement and acoustical treatments. They are more comfortable spending tens of thousands of dollars a year on amps rather than make a real difference with impactful changes.

Clearly I am not an amp biggot. Most are good and of those most are better than perfect.

 

[Razz]

Nice to see you here!

Good advice has been given about amps.. now, lets talk about your room and speakers!

What models do you have?

I too own Dyns and love them!
(actually, a number of us here own them)

 

[Tman72]

I actually have Audience 52SE. I picked up a full set fronts back and center from Modia on clearence about 4 years ago for just $2000 they are on solid metal stands with rubber iso padding , I wish I had some new Contours or Confidence I really like the sound of Dyns. Focus wouldn't be a bad choice either! I like the Esotar2 tweeter.

My room isn't big , 16 x12 x 8 with a 6 foot opening in one corner and a large window . I have hardwood floors with a rug and large micro fiber sectional with recliner , it isn't a dedicated "theater" room just a living room with a tv ( VT50) 65" and sub svs in corner behind wedge of sectional .
With the curtains , furniture , rug and some wall decor it kind of deadens the room , I don't have bass traps or diffuser panels or anything like that.

 

[DIYer]

I don't have bass traps or diffuser panels or anything like that.

Time to invest on those. They are worth it.

 

[Tman72]

I really purchased the amp to go from a 3 channel to 5 channel ( I suppose I could have just gotten a 2 channel amp) so eventually I could get a pre/pro instead of a receiver.

With the $$ I get from the gear I sell I could invest in some room treatments.

Will a separate pre/pro such as the Outlaw 975 or the Emotiva UMC-2000 make any difference compared to the Onkyo receiver being used as a pre/pro?
Flint , I read your posts on room treatments and acoustics LEDE , very interesting and informative it really shows how much you put into this "hobby" ..... nice avatar by the way!

Thanks for the suggestions/ advice everyone.

 

[Rope]

A good pre/pro will lower noise floor and offer more features, not to mention connection options.

Rope

 

[Yesfan70]

I would do the room treatments before committing to the pre-pro. Like DIYer mentioned, average sounding speakers can sound pretty dang awesome in a well treated room, so imagine what a high end speaker like your Dyns would sound like.

The only way I would do the pre-pro first, is if the one you have is pretty dated (no HDMI switching for example).

 

[Rope]

I would do the room treatments before committing to the pre-pro. Like DIYer mentioned, average sounding speakers can sound pretty dang awesome in a well treated room, so imagine what a high end speaker like your Dyns would sound like.

The only way I would do the pre-pro first, is if the one you have is pretty dated (no HDMI switching for example).

^^
THIS!

No doubt acoustic treatments will make the single biggest sonic impact. While pre/pros are superior in reducing noise floor, they're are just another "black box."

Rope

 

[Tman72]

Gotcha!! I don't have any room correction software/knowledge like True RTA or REW ?

I guess these are the correct software I need ? Or do I just experiment? Thanks

 

[Tman72]

Well I received my new amp today 5 channel Sunfire , I first hooked up the left channel to my front left speaker then hooked the Anthem MCA 3 right channel to the right speaker just to see if I could tell a difference ....

So the question is could I? Well yes and no the Sunfire was a little louder and had a little more bass power/impact due to the higher power ratings I suppose , the Anthem was a tad bit brighter but this is probably due to the different amp technologies .

All in all there wasn't much difference they were subtle at best. The biggest difference was the rear channels , previously being powered by the receiver were now powered by the 450 watt in 4ohm Sunfire obviously a slight upgrade .

So I agree with the posts that most amps will probably sound the same. I will probably sell the Anthem and keep the Sunfire due to the 5 channels.

 

[DIYer]

Well I received my new amp today 5 channel Sunfire , I first hooked up the left channel to my front left speaker then hooked the Anthem MCA 3 right channel to the right speaker just to see if I could tell a difference ....

So the question is could I? Well yes and no the Sunfire was a little louder and had a little more bass power/impact due to the higher power ratings I suppose , the Anthem was a tad bit brighter but this is probably due to the different amp technologies .

If you are into comparing amps in objective way, they have to be hooked up to same speaker with a switching device so that you can switch them instantly. Also they have to be played at same output level (adjusted with volume potentiometer at line level). What's even better is to listen to them without knowing which one is being used (double blind comparison). :twocents-mytwocents:

 

[Flint]

A very slight difference in sound level will dramatically alter how it is perceived. In general, louder speakers will have more bass and impact than quieter speakers even if the difference in sound level is as small as 1dB SPL. If you want to compare the amps, you need to calibrate their outputs to within less than 0.1dB, I use a voltmeter to do that calibration rather than a SPL meter as it is more accurate and consistent when using a sine wave test tone.

As for room treatments, I have several tutorials in the acoustics sections. Basically, place absorbers on the side walls between the listener and the speakers first.

 

[MatthewB]

Tman welcome back I am still using my Onkyo 805 as a semi preamp with three outboard stereo amps (to run my rear and side channels and one stereo amp bi-amped for my center. What do I use to run my main DefTech BP 7001 towers yep the Onkyo. The 805 in stereo mode has one of the strongest amps made for receiver use and the Onkyo driving just two channels achieves 181 watts per channel so it was more than strong enough to handle my towers. The 805 is a workhorse of a receiver and unless its having any issues or your running out of HDMI inputs then I see no need to upgrade. Your money would be better well spent on room acoustics.