SVS 10NSD back in service in my HT

[PaulyT]

Well, it's been sitting in my living room for several years unused, so I decided to take my 'ole SVS PB10NSD - their entry-level model at the time I started my audio obsession - and put it in the HT.

If you recall, my prior setup had L/R mains as full-range in the pre/pro, with the outs going to my Soundhound 3-way crossover, and thence to Flint's old MTMs for MF and HF and my pair of (inexpensive but still good IMHO) Energy 10" subs for LF. These Energy subs had to be crossed over relatively high, 100Hz, to pair with the MTMs. I had no dedicated subwoofer or LFE channel. After listening to various systems this past month, especially Jeff's with his complex but amazing bass setup, I decided mine just wasn't cutting it. It's not bad, but the low end of these Energy subs is kinda lacking - though I think they do just fine up in the 50-100Hz range.

So I popped in the SVS, set the crossover on the mains to 40Hz. Now I have a sub for the LFE and the low end of the L/R main channels. What I'm not totally sure of is whether, in this configuration, the pre/pro (onkyo 885) is sending the full-range LFE channel to the sub, or if it also crosses the LFE channel at 40Hz and sends the upper part to the mains? I would guess not, that what's happening is the <40Hz from the mains is going to the sub, along with the full LFE - subject to the 885's LFE low pass filter, currently set at 100Hz, but I would assume the LFE channel doesn't normally contain much up there anyway.

I did not spend a lot of time playing with different crossovers, sub positions (I'm pretty constrained in space in my small room), nor did I do a careful level calibration - which is kinda tricky with material only in the <40Hz range anyway. I just played around with my various bass testing tracks, and found a level I felt blended well.

Yes, it helps. The SVS definitely has more punch at these low frequencies. And I think not having to go down so low helps the Energy "subs" (now really just LF woofers) to play more cleanly in the range they're outputting. This is all kind of a qualitative opinion right now, but after a couple hours of listening to various material, I'm happy with the result. And since I didn't have to spend any money, all the better! Dunno why I didn't do this experiment a long time ago... guess I felt the bass in the earlier configuration was satisfactory, until I got more experience with other's systems' superior bass response. A double-edged sword, that. :?


FYI, my new favorite (or at least in the top 5) demo track is Wiggle Room from Spyro Gyra's Deep End album, which I happen to have in SACD. There's a lot of bass material in here that is very interesting, and which I heard clearly for the first time at Jeff's. Mine's not up to that level by any means, but at least I can hear what's going on now, which when I played it yesterday was kinda disappointing to realize what was missing - and was my primary immediate motivation to pop the sub in today. But this track is also a killer surround sound demo.

 

[Barney]

Keep us posted on your "playing around with your new system".
I'm also a fan of Energy subs. Along time ago I demoed some Energy subs & a friend of mine has one. Not bad for the money....clean sounding if I remember right.

 

[PaulyT]

Yeah Barney, I got those subs not only because there was a closeout deal on them at Vanns.com, but because I remember you posting about your appreciation for Energy speakers. I haven't heard any of their regular speakers, but considering I paid about $150 each for these subs, they're a bang-up deal.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Pauly,

Sounds like quite a nice (free) upgrade!

From what I remember of your room / set-up I'm sure it's a positive improvement in the low end.

Regarding the 885's LFE signal: I can only speak from 886 experience but I doubt that anything from the LFE channel gets sent elsewhere (ie. back to the mains above a certain frequency.) Sounds like things are set up right - for what you have got in play.

Of course the proof is always in the listening, and if you hear an improvement then there is an improvement!

I figure two or three more subs into the mix and you'll be joining the Jeff and Matt Club.

Jeff

ps. I'm always happy to inspire others to new heights. Heck I'm expecting that the "Wive's of GTG 4.0" will soon be booking their "In Search of Super Mike" tour to Amsterdam any day now.

 

[malsackj]

Just a reminder that a ported sub will not work well with material that is lower than the box tuning because of the high amount of excursion on the cone.

When working with the big EV 15 the two ports are for a tuning of 40 hz. EV states that if you plug one port you can tune to 32 hz with a 6 db boost in the 32 to 40. So that is what I have done with the monsters to get me lower for the church organs when doing wedding work. Most other music is 40 hz and above, Low E on base guitar is around the 40 hz.

Another question is with Jeff's system was he running a small amount of Sub harmonic synth into the music at the time. This could also account for you feeling of the lack in base response. The music in Spyro may have some Sub harmonic included but most of that group is with the base guitar and would not be below the 40 hz note limit of the instrument.

 

[Towen7]

The LFE channel can have info upto 120Hz but it is not a low pass filter, it's a brick wall. With that in mind the engineers usually satrt to roll-off conetnt above 80Hz.

 

[MatthewB]

Pauly my padawan, you no longer are the student but the jedi master.

if you cross the mains at 40hz then the 885 will send everything above 40Hz to your mains and everything below to your SVS. I've been doing this for years and everyone has been busting my chops over it for years. But because my room is so fucked up I needed multiple "mid bass" subs to fill my room with bass and use my SVS NSD 12/2 for just everything below 40hz. I have found by doing this my mains (with built in powered subs crossed at 40Hz), my center with a mid bass sub also crossed at 40Hz and my rears with sub literally engulf the room with tight well controlled distortion free mid bass and my SVS really has all the power it needs to push anything below 40hz. Granted if I had the perfect room I would'nt need the mid bass subs. My bedroom system only has one sub (with two SVS ISD 12" drivers and that does an awesome job without the need of any other sub.

It all depends on what your speakers can handle and the room itself. Look at Bats HT his Batcave has no need for any mid bass units and sounds perfect. Every system is different. Do what sounds perfect to you and glad to hear I'm not the only one using a smaller sub to push bass above 40Hz.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Just a reminder that a ported sub will not work well with material that is lower than the box tuning because of the high amount of excursion on the cone.

When working with the big EV 15 the two ports are for a tuning of 40 hz. EV states that if you plug one port you can tune to 32 hz with a 6 db boost in the 32 to 40. So that is what I have done with the monsters to get me lower for the church organs when doing wedding work. Most other music is 40 hz and above, Low E on base guitar is around the 40 hz.

Another question is with Jeff's system was he running a small amount of Sub harmonic synth into the music at the time. This could also account for you feeling of the lack in base response. The music in Spyro may have some Sub harmonic included but most of that group is with the base guitar and would not be below the 40 hz note limit of the instrument.

Nope.

 

[PaulyT]

Just a reminder that a ported sub will not work well with material that is lower than the box tuning because of the high amount of excursion on the cone.

When working with the big EV 15 the two ports are for a tuning of 40 hz. EV states that if you plug one port you can tune to 32 hz with a 6 db boost in the 32 to 40. So that is what I have done with the monsters to get me lower for the church organs when doing wedding work. Most other music is 40 hz and above, Low E on base guitar is around the 40 hz.

Another question is with Jeff's system was he running a small amount of Sub harmonic synth into the music at the time. This could also account for you feeling of the lack in base response. The music in Spyro may have some Sub harmonic included but most of that group is with the base guitar and would not be below the 40 hz note limit of the instrument.

Nope.

J, It's not that I was suddenly hearing frequencies in Jeff's system that my system couldn't produce at all. Just that it was a lot cleaner than what I'd heard before. And my addition of the sub @ 40Hz in my HT did not suddenly produce miracles in sound reproduction, either, just helps a little with the very very low end, "thumps" from a kick drum and such. I just get the sense that the Energy subs were having a hard time producing stuff at 20Hz at the same time as they're pushing out material up to 100Hz.

I don't have any RTA or anything objective to back up my sense of (slight) improvement. And hell, even if it's only in my imagination, it's still real enough in my head to be worth it.

 

[malsackj]

When working in the live sound and producing a solid kick from the drum Richard and I have been using a large bump in EQ on the 80 hz and the 5 to 6 k area of the microphone from the Kick.

When looking at shures Beta 52 or PG52 microphone response chart you will see this same bump and consider that we are still adding more to that kick for some of the artists and the fans. I have a PG52 currently for my live sound work and Richard has moved to an Audix.

With the 5 to 6 k smack of the beater providing some definition and the 80 giving the low end.
Consider that when a radio or TV plays back on a tiny cheap speaker your mostly going to hear the harmonics from the 80 with the smack in the 5 to 6 k area. This all depends on the finalizing process in the recording and release.

 

[Botch]

Just a reminder that a ported sub will not work well with material that is lower than the box tuning because of the high amount of excursion on the cone.

This month's Sound + Vision + Audio + Light reviews a Sunfire sub, and supposedly it has 1.8" of cone excursion, this in a box less than 12" square! Its not a ported design, but rather bass reflex; don't know how much of a difference that makes...

 

[malsackj]

If you visit the Sunfire web site and read the Sub white paper they explain much.

A bass reflex design is a ported box design and still would have the same problem of not providing base below the port design of the box. Because Sunfire has specifically designed the speakers ability for large excursion and heat handling they are able to better handle this output. They also claim to acoustically handle the ports moving air with out creating a sonic boom.

Might be fun to see how this translates in the pro audio one day. Replacing 18 inch subs with a collection of 10 inch? With the pop music scene and the show of the moving speakers to help with the party atmosphere the high excursion on that 10 would be fun to watch as it tries to jump out of the box.

 

[Flint]

High excursion pro-subs are already on the market often in the form of bass-reflex designs which can generate pretty good output at 40Hz for their size. Where in the past the way to powerful prosound bass was a wall of 18" subs in huge enclosures, today you can get the same results with a few moderate sized enclosures with 18" high excursion drivers. It all started with the Aura 18" Prosound sub that came out at the beginning of the 1990s and could handle 2,600 watts and had a 1.5" excursion.

The reason pro subs are not 1 foot square is still the laws of physics. Producing 110dB SPL in a very large room with a 10" driver would require an excursion of way more than 2" - more like 8 inches of excursion - and tens of thousands of watts. That simply isn't practical, yet.