whole house audio, products and zones/sources question

[asal]

Hey guys & gals,

I haven't interacted with you guys in a while, but I've got some questions for those of you who live and breath A/V, as i'm mid-construction in my house addition and want to run a whole house audio distribution system. I'm looking to have a several "zones" of audio, but don't need independent sources. I've attached pics below showing ideally where i'd like to independently control on/off and volume of speakers. Whatever unit I buy really only needs to be able to support 3 or so sources.

basement:

1st floor:

2nd floor:

So I don't know if these need to be full out "zones", as at any one time Zones 4,5 and 6 could all be forced to share the same source at all times, but I would like to have volume and on/off control for each of those areas independently. Zone 3 will have a TV so i'd want that as a true zone with its own source switching. Also for upstairs zones 7 & 8 could definitely share the same source selection at all times, but just need independent volume controls for the speakers in those areas.

So if I boil it down, do I really just need an 8 zone setup? (1, 2, 3, (4, which is zones 4,5,6), (5, which is zones 7,8), 6 (zone 9), 7 (zone 10), and 8 (zone 11)

I've seen products like the Niles ZR-6, (6 zone, 6 source), and i know you can add another system like the ZR-4 to get 10 zones, but again I'm not sure if that's the best use of funds, or if Niles is even a leader anymore in whole house/multiroom setups. So if you all have good solutions other than Niles, or know a solution that might work for my setup, I'd appreciate the input.

BTW i'm doing electrical this weekend and we're running 14 AWG to all the zones listed and running them back as home runs to under the basement stairs where I plan to house the equipment.

Thanks,
Adam (brother of Saldog)

 

[saldog]

In for answers! I say you take space away from the "play room" and give it to the "media center" in the basement

Also, a few pictures of construction are always welcome

 

[asal]

ha, well here's one of some holes in my roof:

the inside is a bunch of framing right now, kind of hard to get pictures that reflect what the spaces are.

 

[Batman]

I may or may not have viable product suggestion later as I'm heading out to work. But as a minimum for a pre-wire, I'd pull a four-conductor speaker cable along with a cat5, 5e, or 6 (whatever you have access to) from the central basement location to each of the volume control locations. (They even produce this 4 cond. speaker/cat 5 combo all in one jacket, but you'll have to pay up to have that super easy pull). Then from the volume control location, pull a pair (one cable/speaker) of speaker cables to the speaker locations for each room. Some set ups require a 2-gang box, depending on how robust and capable the volume/controller is for each room/zone, so do your research. Wiring this way will be sufficient for whichever system you pick. The cat5 will allow any system that provides information/2-way communication to OLED volume controls. You may decide that's not a feature you want now but its easy to do during the pre-wire incase of a future upgrade. The cat5 also allows you to select different sources in different zones. Ultimately if you prewire sufficiently the wiring will handle any distribution system you can imagine, but my rule-of-thumb is, the more streamlined & user-friendly the system is, the more complex the install and setup. Now is the time to prewire properly while its easy.

NUVO & Russound deserve a look in addition to Niles. It has been a while since I've looked into this.

 

[Haywood]

I would probably do a hybrid solution of in-wall speakers with single-gang volume/digital amp boxes and inexpensive IP-based client boxes (i.e. Roku, AppleTV) before I'd drop huge coin on some expensive and ungainly switched setup.

 

[Towen7]

Seems like another case where an using the AirPlay function of Apple TV an/or a compatible AV receiver may be the a cost effective option.

 

[asal]

Thanks everyone for your help so far.

Bats, I did see that quad cable on monoprice and was tempted to buy it. I'll see what my "electrician" is bringing down this weekend. I will at least bring a cat 5 cable to each of the volume controls. I didn't realize i'd need the speaker cable from the volume control to the speaker itself, i would have thought the "brains" of whatever I put in the basement would control everything from there. I was just going to run cable from the basement up to each speaker independent of the volume control knob locations. The one install/spec sheet for one of the niles control pads only has the cat 5 cable running to it.

I'm not against an Airplay/sonos solution if it looks nice and performs well, i just haven't had enough time with the rest of the house decisions going on to do enough research in this area. Thanks to all you guys for continuing to send ideas.

-adam

 

[Towen7]

If you want something more elegant/powerful than Roku/AirPLay/Sonos... I suggest a Control4 solution.

Not cheap but very flexible, powerful, scalable.

 

[Batman]

I'd still run the speaker cable from the speakers back to the volume control location. Worst case scenario, you splice the speaker cable together at that box. Then you have the ability to set the system up either way without wasting cable on an extra pull to accomplish the same thing. Depending on the system you ultimately purchase you'll be set either way. I could see how a more modern distribution system could certainly be wired the way you describe with a "smarter" volume control sending a signal back to the distribution amplifier to raise or lower the volume via cat5, etc...

 

[asal]

If you want something more elegant/powerful than Roku/AirPLay/Sonos... I suggest a Control4 solution.

Not cheap but very flexible, powerful, scalable.

When we started the planning for this about 1 year ago I was a big Control4 proponent. But after investigating I was put off by the fact that I had to choose an installer to actually do the installation, as well as anytime I would want to make a system change I'd have to call them back up. This put me off due to cost, extra time needed to orchestrate a change, etc.

So i'd love to do something that I can own and manage. I agree that Control4 has some very nice features, though.

 

[asal]

I'd still run the speaker cable from the speakers back to the volume control location. Worst case scenario, you splice the speaker cable together at that box. Then you have the ability to set the system up either way without wasting cable on an extra pull to accomplish the same thing. Depending on the system you ultimately purchase you'll be set either way. I could see how a more modern distribution system could certainly be wired the way you describe with a "smarter" volume control sending a signal back to the distribution amplifier to raise or lower the volume via cat5, etc...

Ya, I'm following your point now. I think we will do that. I bought a 500ft spool so I should have enough to do this.

I looked at the Russound and Nuvo, both look to have very nice products. The site selling one of the Nuvo touchpads said "programming required", which sounded ominous that I might have to pay big bucks for someone to come program their equipment. Do you guys know if all these multi-room systems generally need professional programming?

 

[Haywood]

I'm too cheap for any of that stuff. I can access every piece of music that I have, every movie on my media server and every streaming service I subscribe to, as well as all of my UltraViolet movies and personal photos easily and intuitively from any TV in my house using Roku boxes and Plex Media Server. Why spend a fortune on a switched solution?

 

[asal]

that's a compelling point Haywood. A couple issues I have with that solution for me: I don't want tv's in my kids rooms, i won't have a tv on my uncovered patio, and i'd like to listen have nicer speakers than what are built in to most tvs.
I could use that solution in a few of those places though...

 

[Haywood]

I would not use the built-in speakers in a TV either. I'd go with in-walls and run them off a digital amp that fits in a single-gang box in the wall with a volume knob and an IR receiver. As for the rooms without TV sets, there is always AirPlay (as much as Apple is not my favorite solution). Sonos is another slick solution that might work. Squeezeboxes are great if you can find them.

In my personal case, I have a sound system with a TV in basically every room, so its easier.

 

[Haywood]

Squeezeboxes rock, even if they are discontinued. I still have and use two of them.

 

[CMonster]

Personally, I wired a couple different zones for audio when we built our house seven years ago and pretty much never used them. I've since disconnected the speakers in one room and totally removed the speakers from another. But if you need a Squeezebox, let me know

 

[Batman]

A-bus, which is pretty much what Haywood is suggesting is definitely worth looking into. I used to see the stuff on parts-express.com all the time. But it was usually in the form of 1 source/4 zones. It's been a while since I've really delved into this but if an A-bus system is available and just as importantly, expandable, that coupled with an appletv and an iPod touch or iPad mini with the remote app would be easy to install and setup and you could walk around the house controlling it all with the iPod and/or mini.

 

[Haywood]

A-bus is exactly what I was thinking, but I couldn't remember the name.

 

[Batman]

This may be a good place to start and give you an overview of how a-bus works...

:text-link:

Russound's A-bus lineup::text-link:

 

[asal]

Thanks! The A-bus solution might be a good solution. I can buy 1 controller, and have independent volume/amps in each room i deem, and/or I can share a sources to a couple of rooms by sharing a hub.

I just need to find a nice way to get internet streaming piped through one of the a-bus sources (like amazon mp3, pandora, etc) that doesnt involve too many components.

I need to find more info on the DMS-3 internet streamer, as its capabilities are vauge http://www.avsforum.com/t/1429081/russound-dms-3-1-digital-media-streamer-question

What I liked about the Nuvo was their internet streamer can display artist/song right on the keypad, vs. if I go A-bus i'll turn on speakers & select source with the A-bus controller, then have to bring up an iPad app for (Sonos, Amazon, etc) and control content that way. An extra step but also a lot more affordable. The Nuvo streaming device is about 2k on its own :doh: