HDtracks....... not for me.

[Deleted member 133]

A Forum search turned up but a few mentions of HDtracks so I thought I'd start this one given my experience with it today.

It started with my noticing an ad for HDtracks in the latest edition of S&V, and a "special offer" to download a compilation album of 96/24 tracks for $5.98. So I bit.

Downloading was fairly easy - aided by the ability to use PayPal. I ended up with a folder containing the nine FLAC tracks, and a pdf of the liner notes (and a very low-res JPEG of the "cover").

But let me back up a bit.

I'm a huge purchaser of new and used discs: CDs, SACDs, DVD-A, DVD-V, BD. I "download" practically nothing - for a lot of reasons: I like albums as opposed to songs; I prefer to buy "high quality"; I then rip that to MP3 format for portable use. And I like using actual "discs." (Bonus: the cost of discs is pretty darn low if you shop around.)

So HDtracks had an initial appeal on two fronts: high-res downloads and entire albums. It would be a winner if I could easily take what I download and convert / burn it to disc. In other words, for me the download experience should ultimately result in the same end product as had I purchased the original disc.

So I gave it a shot.

With my FLAC-based "album" downloaded I then set off to burn it to CD.

First task was to take the FLAC files and convert them to WAV files. (For two reasons: I assume that a WAV CD, not FLAC, would be universally-playable, and besides that my version of NERO does not recognize FLAC. I also found WMP to be frustratingly useless - but maybe that's just me.) I used FreeRIP to convert the 96/24 files to WAV - noticing that while I could apparently preserve the 96kHz property, I was limited to 16bit with FreeRIP. Oh well; I was in experimentation mode. Conversion went smoothly - with track names and other data apparently preserved. (more on that later.)

At this point I got a bit sidetracked. I looked for an application that would preserve the full 96/24 through the FLAC to WAV conversion. A trial version of xrecode II did the trick - again preserving the track info.

Using NERO I now burned the 96/16 files to a CD. Nero "accepted" the format, and near as I can tell that's what it ended up burning. I can't really tell because during the burn process none of the track info was preserved. I can't find a way to determine if the tracks are what I think they are; I'm assuming they are.

I played that disc in a variety of CD, DVD and BD players - all without problem. The tracks all sound great. But through none of the devices (players, receivers, pre/pro) could I see any confirmation that they were 96/16.

But as I said all of the track metadata (if that's the proper term) seemed to be lost. All I had was "Track 1" etc and the playing time(s). And to me that's a deal-breaker.

I also set out to see if I could take those 96/24 WAV files and make a useable disc out of them. CD is out, but from some searching online apparently there are ways of using them by creating a DVD-A. However I could find no way to pull it off with either the software or blank discs that I had at my disposal. (Just burning them onto a regular blank DVD doesn't work.)

All of this took up a few hours of my time. In the end I was left somewhat disappointed. What would have helped would have been clear and simple instructions on HDtracks' site that would have allowed me to easily make what would have been the equivalent of a store-bought CD from the download. Afterall, other than for this "special offer" most full albums will set you back a ridiculously high amount of money using HDtracks - more than buying the equivalent disc online.

They try to make the sale on the basis of the 96/24 quality of their downloads, BUT as I found out, that's of no real use in creating a CD. I guess if someone wants all of their music to be computer / server-based, and can "feed" it to their system, then, at least technologically, it would work. Price-wise? Don't think so.

Anyhow, if anyone else has experience with HDtracks and wants to share, have at it.

Jeff

 

[PaulyT]

Jeff, as I understand it, a CD is inherently 44.1/16. There's no way to make a standard audio CD that's of any higher resolution, it's just not in the format. You'd have to have some sort of DVD-A or BD-audio authoring tool to preserve the 96/24, and of course that wouldn't play in a standard CD player. Similarly with metadata, it's not preserved in an audio cd format; it's audio-only, and it's not like burning MP3 or whatever onto a data CD. I don't think any of that is HDtrack's problem, it just is what it is.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to do...?

 

[Botch]

The program Toast will burn blurays, but my Macs don't come with bluray burners so I haven't been able to play with it. My version of Toast is also at least 2 versions old, so you might want to check into that.

 

[Flint]

The professionals who created the 24/96 and 24/192 files used computers to create, edit, master and listen to the music. You can get a killer hi-rez semi-pro stereo sound card for any PC or Mac for less than $150 to listen to high resolution audio at home.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Jeff, as I understand it, a CD is inherently 44.1/16. There's no way to make a standard audio CD that's of any higher resolution, it's just not in the format. You'd have to have some sort of DVD-A or BD-audio authoring tool to preserve the 96/24, and of course that wouldn't play in a standard CD player. Similarly with metadata, it's not preserved in an audio cd format; it's audio-only, and it's not like burning MP3 or whatever onto a data CD. I don't think any of that is HDtrack's problem, it just is what it is.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to do...?

I don't think you are Pauly.

I'm pretty much certain that all I ended up doing is creating the equivalent of a CD (sans the metadata) starting with downloaded hi-res FLAC files and working through an interim step of converting the 96/24 FLAC to 96/16 WAV due to the limitations of my NERO software. NERO must have taken those 96/16 files and further converted them to 44.1/16 during the CD creation process.

What I am lamenting (probably not clearly enough) is the inability to use a download service (and I'm picking on HDtracks in this case) to make an exact duplicate of what I would otherwise get if I just went out and bought a CD. (I do however, applaud HDtracks for offering hi-res downloads - although at what I consider to be way too high prices.)

Why? Because I rue the day when I won't be able to buy something "tangible"; when downloading will be my only option; when I won't be able to access at least CD quality; and when I won't have the visceral pleasure of all that comes with owning, handling, and using a disc.

Call me old fashioned.

 

[Deleted member 133]

The program Toast will burn blurays, but my Macs don't come with bluray burners so I haven't been able to play with it. My version of Toast is also at least 2 versions old, so you might want to check into that.

There's a Blu-ray burner and stacks of blank discs waiting for me at my Nashville hotel (next week), along with bundled software. I am interested to find out of there's any way I can use it to make Blu-ray audio discs using hi-res files as the starting point. Or, just as there was a significant difference between DVD-A and DVD-V, will BD-A be so different that I won't be able to? I'm thinking yes, but we'll see.

 

[Deleted member 133]

The professionals who created the 24/96 and 24/192 files used computers to create, edit, master and listen to the music. You can get a killer hi-rez semi-pro stereo sound card for any PC or Mac for less than $150 to listen to high resolution audio at home.

Understood.

Again to their credit, HDtracks does tell users about affordable software that will play their 96/24 files from a computer connected to an audio system, as well as means of streaming it from a server.

As I have lamented, I'm really looking to see if I can "stream" it the old fashioned way: by carrying a disc from player to player.

 

[Flint]

My Sony Blu Ray player has a USB port on the front if it. I imagine I can take a hi-rez WAV file, put it on a USB stick and play it in the player. I'll check it out soon.

 

[mzpro5]

I think your criticism of HDtracks is unfair. You are attempting to do something the service is not meant to do. It provides hi rez digital files that can be listened to on a computer or transferred to a thumb drive and listened to on numerous devices. It is not a service to make hi rez CD's.


It is your unrealistic expectations of the service that leads to your dissatisfaction not the service itself. HDtracks should not be faulted for that.

 

[Huey]

I have been probably the most vocal advocate of HDTracks, although my biggest complaint with them, would be price. If they had them priced at the $10-$12 range, I would be like a kid in a candy store.

I'll be the first to admit, that I know very little about the hi res music formats, so I might be talking out of ignorance here. I was under the impression, that wav files do not contain the metadata that you are use to with other formats. Media Monkey is what I use to burn a cd from flac files, although I would use dbpoweramp, but for some reason, that program won't recognize my cd burner and I have been to lazy to try and figure out why. I believe that media monkey will allow the creation of a HDCD, although I could be wrong. My current receiver does not tell me when there is a higher bitrate like my rotel did.

I hope HDTracks survive and thrives. It was started by the Chesky brothers, who we all know are into high quality music reproduction. Ease of use, hard to find cd's, higher sampling rates, no drm, no dynamic range reduction(at least on some albums) make them very attractive. There only stumbling block is the higher cost in my opinion.

 

[Huey]

BTW, there is a coupon code to use until tonight, VP15, to get 15% off of any purchase.

 

[Deleted member 133]

I think your criticism of HDtracks is unfair. You are attempting to do something the service is not meant to do. It provides hi rez digital files that can be listened to on a computer or transferred to a thumb drive and listened to on numerous devices. It is not a service to make hi rez CD's.

It is your unrealistic expectations of the service that leads to your dissatisfaction not the service itself. HDtracks should not be faulted for that.

To quote from the HDtracks web site, Q&A section: "To really get the most benefit of an HDtracks music file you could burn a CD-R and play it on your home Hi-Fi system."

Otherwise, and as I said (perhaps not clearly enough) I was using HDtracks as an example - mostly because they're the only service out there that's focusing on on hi-res (for which I did "applaud" them - again perhaps not clearly enough.)

 

[Deleted member 133]

I have been probably the most vocal advocate of HDTracks, although my biggest complaint with them, would be price. If they had them priced at the $10-$12 range, I would be like a kid in a candy store.

I'll be the first to admit, that I know very little about the hi res music formats, so I might be talking out of ignorance here. I was under the impression, that wav files do not contain the metadata that you are use to with other formats. Media Monkey is what I use to burn a cd from flac files, although I would use dbpoweramp, but for some reason, that program won't recognize my cd burner and I have been to lazy to try and figure out why. I believe that media monkey will allow the creation of a HDCD, although I could be wrong. My current receiver does not tell me when there is a higher bitrate like my rotel did.

I hope HDTracks survive and thrives. It was started by the Chesky brothers, who we all know are into high quality music reproduction. Ease of use, hard to find cd's, higher sampling rates, no drm, no dynamic range reduction(at least on some albums) make them very attractive. There only stumbling block is the higher cost in my opinion.

I agree with what you say - and in particular your last paragraph.

Again I am really lamenting the fact that, at least right now, I have no way of downloading CD-quality "albums" and turning them into CD-equivalent discs - music and metadata included. A service like HDtracks is clearly "getting close" but as the title to this thread says, it's just not close enough for me to jump on board.

For now I'll continue to buy discs. I worry about the day when I will no longer be able to do so.

 

[Deleted member 133]

To further expand on my wishes / expectations, and how that might work...

When I copy a CD (say one that I own, that's in my collection, in order to use and leave it in my car without worry of it getting damaged or lost - something that happens with my CDs in my wife's car WAY too often!) I specify a "source" and a "destination." The software (in my case NERO) simply grabs 100% of what it finds at the source and burns it onto the destination. The end product is indistinguishable from the original - other than by looking at it.

So why not have a service where it is / provides all of the the "source" information - exactly as if it were a disc in my drive? I scan their catalogue, find an album I want, select and pay for the right to access it, load a blank into my burner, press "go" and in one swell foop I have a CD of that album in hand.

Yes I know that that's not possible today. But that's what I want and surely there's no technical reason why code can't be developed to do just that. (And no I'm not picking on HDtracks again!)

 

[mzpro5]

I think your criticism of HDtracks is unfair. You are attempting to do something the service is not meant to do. It provides hi rez digital files that can be listened to on a computer or transferred to a thumb drive and listened to on numerous devices. It is not a service to make hi rez CD's.

It is your unrealistic expectations of the service that leads to your dissatisfaction not the service itself. HDtracks should not be faulted for that.

To quote from the HDtracks web site, Q&A section: "To really get the most benefit of an HDtracks music file you could burn a CD-R and play it on your home Hi-Fi system."

Otherwise, and as I said (perhaps not clearly enough) I was using HDtracks as an example - mostly because they're the only service out there that's focusing on on hi-res (for which I did "applaud" them - again perhaps not clearly enough.)

I missed that on their site. I stand corrected.

 

[mzpro5]

To further expand on my wishes / expectations, and how that might work...

When I copy a CD (say one that I own, that's in my collection, in order to use and leave it in my car without worry of it getting damaged or lost - something that happens with my CDs in my wife's car WAY too often!) I specify a "source" and a "destination." The software (in my case NERO) simply grabs 100% of what it finds at the source and burns it onto the destination. The end product is indistinguishable from the original - other than by looking at it.

So why not have a service where it is / provides all of the the "source" information - exactly as if it were a disc in my drive? I scan their catalogue, find an album I want, select and pay for the right to access it, load a blank into my burner, press "go" and in one swell foop I have a CD of that album in hand.

Yes I know that that's not possible today. But that's what I want and surely there's no technical reason why code can't be developed to do just that. (And no I'm not picking on HDtracks again!)

I still use my ancient Phillips CDR 765 to make copies of my CD's. Only occasionally use my computer.

 

[PaulyT]

To further expand on my wishes / expectations, and how that might work...

When I copy a CD (say one that I own, that's in my collection, in order to use and leave it in my car without worry of it getting damaged or lost - something that happens with my CDs in my wife's car WAY too often!) I specify a "source" and a "destination." The software (in my case NERO) simply grabs 100% of what it finds at the source and burns it onto the destination. The end product is indistinguishable from the original - other than by looking at it.

So why not have a service where it is / provides all of the the "source" information - exactly as if it were a disc in my drive? I scan their catalogue, find an album I want, select and pay for the right to access it, load a blank into my burner, press "go" and in one swell foop I have a CD of that album in hand.

Yes I know that that's not possible today. But that's what I want and surely there's no technical reason why code can't be developed to do just that. (And no I'm not picking on HDtracks again!)

It's certainly technically possible - they could sell you an ISO file of the entire CD, which is basically a bit-for-bit image of the data on the CD, which you can then burn to your own CD, or extract the audio files from with various apps. I think the only thing you're really missing when you buy individual tracks it the way a CD can tell the player to move from one track to the next with no pause/break - like for classical music (e.g. Beethoven's 5th) where one movement flows directly into the next. You wouldn't get that if you burned individual tracks to the CD, unless you use some fairly smart burning software that knows how to insert breaks or not. I think I've seen authoring tools that can handle it, but then you might have to insert pauses in the end all the tracks you don't want to flow directly, because it's an all-or-nothing flag in the CD as a whole...? Going from memory here, not sure off the top of my head exactly how this works.

Anyway, my point is that if you get an ISO, then all this would be handled by that, and you could indeed get an exact copy of a CD. In fact, if you have only a single drive for read/write, and you're making a copy of a CD yourself (as you describe with nero), the intermediate data is most likely stored temporarily on your computer as an ISO.


("swell foop"? been hittin' the port there Jeff? Most would say "fell swoop.")

 

[Deleted member 133]

("swell foop"? been hittin' the port there Jeff? Most would say "fell swoop.")

It's a Canadian thing.

Actually it's a family thing; we often aim for deliberate Spoonerisms wherever possible.

ps. Thanks for the detailed info re ISO files. I'd not thought of that, but now that you mention it, when I copy a DVD using DVD Decrypter, it does indeed extract the ISO file and it's that file that then gets used to make the copy.

 

[Botch]

I spike loonerisms! :handgestures-thumbup:

 

[Flint]

CDs are limited to 16/44.1, period.

What this entire conversation is missing is the fact that for a VERY large percentage of home users, CD players are a thing of the past, as are all disc players. I have very technical friends who at this point no longer own a stand alone disc player of any kind. They get their video entertainment from Cable/Satellite, Amazon, Netflix and iTunes. They get their music entertainment from Amazon or iTunes. They don't bother with hard media anymore.

Just recently a friend of mine, a Q/A lab tech for my employer (a technical junky and genius) said his son got an Audio CD of his favorite band for Christmas and didn't know what to do with it. My friend had to really think about it before he remembered his Xbox could play audio CDs.