Is there a 12" small cab $500 sub (new or used) worth buying?

[BrianZ]

I got the Dayton Audio Titanic 10" diy kit (from Parts Express) about 3 years ago. It is my first sub and I really love what it added to my 2 channel system. It's seems very fast & clean to my inexperienced sub ear. But of course, having been a few years, I am getting the itch. Really the only reason I'm even starting to consider something else is that this mine doesn't go all the way down to the basement. It's get pretty low, but I can definitely tell when there's more to be heard on certain tracks & movie scenes.

I am wondering how much bigger I can expect and how much more I'd need to spend to get down another 10 Hz or so, without sacrificing audio quality. Will a decent 12" do it? My Dayton is essentially 14" cube and I can't go too much bigger than that (maybe 16-18" cube max). I don't play anything especially loud btw.

A few internet searches and I'm not really seeing anything.

 

[Deleted member 133]

http://www.theaudioannex.com/forum/threads/velodyne-chrysalis-photon-10-sub.5256/

If you are lucky enough to find a used one, it could satisfy both your performance and price requirements.

I'm still using mine as described in the link above and would never consider replacing it.

A few years ago when I was "flipping" a big old very capable dual-12" SVS sub that I took off Zing's hands, I set it up in my family room HT to demo for the eventual buyer. It was easy to set the SVS up in place of the Velo and despite the David and Goliath size difference, on all of the material that I used during the demo I honestly did not hear (or feel) a huge difference. Now no doubt if I wanted to crank up the SVS it would have kept chugging along well-past when the Velo would have given up, but when properly calibrated in the room with movies and music, I really noticed no difference. Again I never ran things to an extreme - moderate levels at most (since even that got things rattling a bit!)

Just my two cents (or 1.52 US Cents at today's exchange rate )

Jeff

 

[BrianZ]

Hey thanks for the tip Jeff. That's just the sort of rare gem I imagine I'm gonna need. I'll keep a look out for one.

And on the 3x more than I can pay front (but the right size), I just discovered the PSB SubSeries 450. Seems like just the thing, if I could afford it. Anyone have any experience with one? And what do we think of DSP in a sub circuit? I don't personally like DSP in my system, but if it were confined to the bizarre world of LFE I think it might not be a bad idea. And I've done very well trusting Paul Barton with my sound up to now. (this is not serious btw - i simply cannot afford one unless i find a super desperate or ignorant seller)

 

[Deleted member 133]

Hey thanks for the tip Jeff. That's just the sort of rare gem I imagine I'm gonna need. I'll keep a look out for one.

And on the 3x more than I can pay front (but the right size), I just discovered the PSB SubSeries 450. Seems like just the thing, if I could afford it. Anyone have any experience with one? And what do we think of DSP in a sub circuit? I don't personally like DSP in my system, but if it were confined to the bizarre world of LFE I think it might not be a bad idea. And I've done very well trusting Paul Barton with my sound up to now. (this is not serious btw - i simply cannot afford one unless i find a super desperate or ignorant seller)

I use a Velodyne SMS-1 "Digital Drive - Subwoofer Management System" in my main HT. Off the top of my head I think it operates from 200Hz on down - the point being that it's more than just LFE. It's basically a stand-alone version of what was built into Velodyne's higher end subs at the time. I think it's a neat and useful device. The question is whether it's better / more cost effective to simply build this into a sub, or have it as an external device. Since I use mine to handle the sum of three separate subwoofers at the same time, I think the latter. With multiple subs I think you do need to handle things at such a "global" level whereas for a single sub system having it built-in to a lone sub would be great. This is of course assuming you want / need such a device to begin with. I think that even after doing all the obvious and oft-recommended other things (like placement, room treatments, etc.) a lot of folks might still be left with a situation where such a DSP would be the icing on the cake as far as maximizing their system's performance.

I personally like the idea of having DSP system incorporated into a receiver or pre-pro in order to handle more than just bass / LFE. But that's just me.

Jeff

 

[Flint]

If it were me, I would save money until you could afford a great sub - a proper upgrade.

 

[BrianZ]

If it were me, I would save money until you could afford a great sub - a proper upgrade.

Yeah, I think that's where I am. I'll wait until my size limit is the only remaining consideration and then revisit.

So no one has given the SubSeries 450 a try then? If not what are some of the best approx 16-18" subs you're aware of?

 

[Flint]

Power Sound Audio

 

[BrianZ]

Power Sound Audio

I feel like i looked at those already and vaguely remember that the better performers were pretty massive. Same with SVS and HSU. But that was a little while ago - I'll look again.

From the reading I've done so far, the balance of parameters seems to be quite true: performance, size and price. You simply can't get all three. Smaller size and better performance are my priorities, and I'll just have to wait until i can manage the price required to maximize those two. And it is looking like $1500 is the about the lowest number possible (for new). I'll just have to enjoy my Dayton 10" until then (not too shabby).

Last night I learned about a new possible contender: Sumiko. They make a 12" that's about an 18" cube with a 500W amp. But there's almost no talk of it on the web. Anyone run across these?

 

[Flint]

The laws of physics makes using a small sub to get incredible performance a near impossibility, but companies like Sunfire innovated in that space by using massively huge amps and extremely high excursion woofer drivers to try to accomplish the goal of great performance from a tiny subwoofer. Definitive Tech is still making subs like that, but they fall short on THD and speed. That said, they do shake the room pretty well for their size, if that's all you want.

 

[Randy]

I know everyone here has kind of switched from SVS being the de facto sub recommendation to PSA, but I am not that familiar with their lineup.

I do know the SVS stuff like the SB2000 get really good reviews and supposedly are top performers and it fits right into your size requirements. Retail on that one is $699 and I am sure a used model could be found for significantly less.

I would think PSA has a similar model.

 

[Towen7]

I know everyone here has kind of switched from SVS being the de facto sub recommendation to PSA, but I am not that familiar with their lineup.

I do know the SVS stuff like the SB2000 get really good reviews and supposedly are top performers and it fits right into your size requirements. Retail on that one is $699 and I am sure a used model could be found for significantly less.

I would think PSA has a similar model.

I've been putting off mentioning that same thing. Has anyone here actually dealt with SVS since they were bought-out (not even sure that "bought out" is the right term)?

 

[Randy]

I dont know. I do know Tom V has been as consistent as ever in his availability and willingness to help out and since he is no longer with SVS they seem to be silent on that front.
I dont know if anyone has had to deal with them or not otherthan that.

 

[Flint]

There's nothing wrong with SVS. I like PSA because Tom is a member of this forum and has shown willingness to provide input, opinions, advice and humor to us. His friendship makes his business my preferred recommendation.

 

[Randy]

Yes Flint, I know. I was kind of eluding to that in my last post.
WhileI was eluding you cut right to the chase.
Given the choice I would look to PSA first for my next sub purchase. If they didnt have a model that fit my needs I would look to SVS.
We have had many discussions here lately in the brick and mortar thread about service after the sale and Tom V has definitely shown that is a top priority for him.

 

[heeman]

Yes Flint, I know. I was kind of eluding to that in my last post.
WhileI was eluding you cut right to the chase.
Given the choice I would look to PSA first for my next sub purchase. If they didnt have a model that fit my needs I would look to SVS.
We have had many discussions here lately in the brick and mortar thread about service after the sale and Tom V has definitely shown that is a top priority for him.

If they didn't have a sub to fit your needs.................then you are way to needy and don't understand your needs......................

 

[Towen7]

...then you are way to needy and don't understand your needs...

Wait... are we talking about PSA or Apple?

 

[Randy]

well I like where you went with that and I can certainly see your point. But, if $500 is your budget then PSA doesn't have anything in their lineup. Their lowest priced sub is $899.

Now I would try to find a $1k used sub for $500 but a lot of people dont like that route. Or, as Flint has suggested a billion and 3 times I would save my miney until I could swing the $1k sub, hell that is what I did. But for some that is not in the cards for some. Hell I don't know but the small cube sealed box options from SVS are priced a little lower and seem to be phenomenal performers.

 

[lakedmb]

Are you In DC? If so, this may work. Not sure of the dimensions.

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/ele/6093612252.html

 

[BrianZ]

Are you In DC? If so, this may work. Not sure of the dimensions.

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/ele/6093612252.html

I missed it, oh well. What was it?



So looks like the answer to my thread title is a resounding "NO". Not surprised. Ok, fine. So let's bump it up to $1000 and wait til I can afford it. No problem.

Still keeping it at about 16" on all sides, what do ya have? A quick search online of best $1k subs shows quite a few. (Maybe I should start a new thread.) Meantime I'm gonna go scan the PSA and SVS sites.

Anyone know anything about the Martin Logan Dynamo 1000?

 

[Flint]

No.

There are these things called the Laws of Physics which limit how much acoustic power one can generate below 100Hz. You can get a subwoofer with a bigger amp and a driver which has more excursion, but if you keep the box a 16" cube, the amount of gain in the sub 40Hz range will not be very impressive at all. Sunfire did a good job of finding a way to get more SPL from a small box, but their subs lacked tightness and definition. Sure, they could make your walls vibrate, which was impressive for a 12" cube, but the actual audio performance didn't sound all that great.

I do believe you can get better performance than you currently have from a slightly larger sub with a slightly larger woofer and a larger amp (but the bigger amp only matters if you want to play your audio louder than you do today).

I currently own in my secondary system a small SVS Subwoofer, the SB12-NSD, which has been replaced by the SB2000 and sells for $699 new. It is a great sub for the money and size and will very likely perform better than your Dayton Audio subwoofer. Check it out:
https://www.svsound.com/products/sb-2000

That is the only small cube subwoofer I will recommend other than building your own, which there are some options out there that are VERY good, but you'd have to cut the MDF and build/finish the enclosure.

Another consideration is using two subwoofers, like another Dayton Audio sub. Or, perhaps you could look into a tube enclosure or long narrow enclosure laying sideways. Also, you might consider bass actuators mounted to your seating to vibrate your body at the lowest frequencies.