Klipsch Heritage and The Right Room

[Zing]

It seems that anytime someone recommends a Klipsch heritage speaker, there's always the caveat "...in the right room". Maybe that doesn't happen with the Hersey - and maybe not very often with the Cornwall - but nearly every instance of a La Scala or Klipschorn recommendation, that caveat is isn't too far behind.

I assume that "the right room" essentially refers to the size, as in, large enough. And with the Khorns, I'm sure that available and useable corners help define "the right room". But what criteria should be used to determine whether a room is right enough for one of these speakers?

I'm pretty sure I could get away with Hersey speakers in my current room - maybe even Cornwalls - but what about La Scalas? Is there some minimum square footage or room volume that needs to be met before considering any of these speakers?

 

[Flint]

Yep, size and corners - you nailed it.

Large tends to be better for the big Heritage speakers, and listening distance can be important.

With the La Scala and K-Horn, the typical ideal orientation is to aim them (or place the listener) so the direct output from the two midrange horns (squawkers) crossed about a foot to two feet in front of the listener. So, if the speakers are placed in the front corners and aimed in at 45 deg angle, the listener needs to be far enough back while still being away from the wall behind him.

 

[Rope]

The only size specification is relative to acoustics, and that recommendation is at least 2500 cubic feet. Horns in general, are very dyanamic and require plenty of space to function at their optimum. I would assume horms would sound somewhat harsh in a small listening area and not live up to their full potential. On the other hand, Dennie would/could possibly weigh-in on his La Scala's, and describe his room size, and perfomance.

Rope

 

[Yesfan70]

Just going by my limited exposure to the higher end Klipschs, but I think additional room treatments wouldn't hurt either. A few years ago, Deacon and me demoed a pair of Heresy III speakers in a small-mid sized room with nothing more or less than bare walls. Some of the brighter CDs I demoed (like Miles Davis) was just too much for my ears.

The detail was there though. Makes me wonder what a set of LaScalas would sound like.

 

[Zing]

Useable corners, I do not have. And if there's any merit to this 2500 cubic foot thing, then I don't have the space either, as I'm dealing with a laughable 1768 cu ft.

I've never considered KHorns. The La Scalas seemed like they'd be a bit much for my room. The Cornwalls I've heard and like a lot but I have no idea how they'd sound in my room. Plus, they're not exactly small either. So that leaves the Herseys which have always interested me. I bet the cost of shipping would be worth an in-home trial and the subsequent education.

I would think, with the exception of the bass output, the Herseys and the Cornwalls have to sound comparable. I also think the La Scalas would be in another league entirely - on all fronts - over their smaller siblings. And the Khorn is likely in its own league too.

Yeah, I'd like to have Dennie describe his room. I'd also like to know why Pauly gave his Herseys in favor of IG's DIY system.

 

[Zing]

...but I think additional room treatments wouldn't hurt either.

That's interesting that you say that because I've frequently read that, typically, horn speakers don't require as much treatment (due to their more linear directivity?). Then again, maybe that's only the case in an appropriately sized room (read: large enough).

 

[Razz]

I never understood why you are supposed to have the online axis cross a foot or so "infront" of you.

To me it makes sense that sound waves will effect one another and having the "online axis" cross in front of you will distort the true sound in some way. It always seamed to me that having "online axis" or less for each side hitting the listener would have the least detrimental effect.

 

[Zing]

I never understood why you are supposed to have the online axis cross a foot or so "infront" of you.

I'm probably not the best person to be addressing this - and I'm sure I'll be corrected - but I believe that most any speaker, when listened to off-axis, has its high frequencies diminished. The greater degree off axis, the greater the decrease.

With horns, known for being efficient (and overly bright to some), being so extremely off-axis puts their HF output at a much more tolerable and realistic level and, subsequently, brings out the midrange.

Aaron has Herseys and I believe his toe-in is so extreme that the speakers are almost pointing at each other rather than the listener.

 

[Yesfan70]

...but I think additional room treatments wouldn't hurt either.

That's interesting that you say that because I've frequently read that, typically, horn speakers don't require as much treatment (due to their more linear directivity?). Then again, maybe that's only the case in an appropriately sized room (read: large enough).

I should have been a bit more specific...sorry about that. What I mean is I don't think I would go with horns in a bare or minimally bare room. I loved my Klipsch towers, but I tended to get fatigued a bit when listening to them in my current home, compared to my last house. I had carpet and more 'plush' furniture in the old house. My current room doesn't have carpet and doesn't seem to have as much furnishings as I used to have. It's definitely a more lively room than what I had in my last home.

 

[Flint]

Klispch horn-loaded heritage speakers have an inherently brightness when listening to them directly on axis that they are not ideal to be aimed directly at your ears. Aiming them to the outside of your ears is an option, but the off axis response drops pretty quickly at the top end of the midrange and tweeter horns, so the output which crossed over to the opposite ear is duller than is necessary. Also, when aiming the speakers outside of your ears the sound is essentially aimed directly at the wall behind you where it reflects directly back into your ears creating a serious early reflection issue off the rear wall.

If you aim toe them in a ton and aim them so they cross in front of the listener, the sound which crosses from the left to the right ear will sound similar in timber to the left to left ear sound which improves the imaging. Also, the direct sound will hit the wall to the sides of the listener, then bounce to the back wall, then bounce to the opposite side wall, all before reaching the listener again. This reduces the early reflection issues.

So, for Klispsh heritage speakers, the most ideal aiming is to cross the direct sound in front of the listener.

Paul Klipsch advised that approach in the 1960s and it is still true today.

 

[Yesfan70]

Useable corners, I do not have. And if there's any merit to this 2500 cubic foot thing, then I don't have the space either, as I'm dealing with a laughable 1768 cu ft.

I've never considered KHorns. The La Scalas seemed like they'd be a bit much for my room. The Cornwalls I've heard and like a lot but I have no idea how they'd sound in my room. Plus, they're not exactly small either. So that leaves the Herseys which have always interested me. I bet the cost of shipping would be worth an in-home trial and the subsequent education.

I would think, with the exception of the bass output, the Herseys and the Cornwalls have to sound comparable. I also think the La Scalas would be in another league entirely - on all fronts - over their smaller siblings. And the Khorn is likely in its own league too.

Yeah, I'd like to have Dennie describe his room. I'd also like to know why Pauly gave his Herseys in favor of IG's DIY system.

Are you looking to go with some other speakers? I thought you had settled on those Swans or is this for another room?


I too, also think the Cornwalls and Heresys are probably similar except for the Cornwall's low end. The Heresys do have a high cut-off. I think they only extend down to about 60Hz. They were, to me, a lot lighter in the bass compared to my KG5.5 towers but I thought the Heresys midrange and high end had more clarity than mine.

Before I got my Mackies, I was thinking about a system with 5 Heresy IIIs and a beefy SVS sub. I still think that's a doable system for down the road, but I think now I would rather go with something else in the surrounds to get Cornwalls or better for the front pair.

 

[DIYer]

Useable corners, I do not have. And if there's any merit to this 2500 cubic foot thing, then I don't have the space either, as I'm dealing with a laughable 1768 cu ft.

Zing, if you are referring to floor plan shown on this thread, I don't see why you don't have those.

 

[Zing]

Zing, if you are referring to floor plan shown on this thread, I don't see why you don't have those.

I am referring to that. And you don't see why I don't have what speakers specifically? Herseys? Cornwalls? La Scalas??

You don't think my room is a little small for Cornwalls or anything larger? My room's dimensions are 8.5'H x 11.33'W x 18.33'L.

Are you looking to go with some other speakers? I thought you had settled on those Swans or is this for another room?

I did settle on the Swans but they were an interim speaker. If you'll remember, I had a rare opportunity to sell my NHTs for a decent price so I took it. That left me speakerless and I needed to do something. I auditioned 3 ID speakers and liked the Swans the best. Now I'm gearing up to do it right.

 

[Aaron German]

Aaron has Herseys and I believe his toe-in is so extreme that the speakers are almost pointing at each other rather than the listener.

I do have Heresies, and they are almost pointed at each other. My room is small. Just over 1500 cubic feet. I've got one 2'x4'x4" absorber on each side wall, and I used to have one 2'x4'x4" absorber behind but to the inside of each speaker. I now put these two absorbers in front of the TV when listening. Seems to have more of an effect to me: the soundstage seems to have more depth. I also have super chunck bass traps in each of the front corners.

I don't think the speaker/room combo is too bright, but on some CDs I do turn down the treble quite a bit. So maybe I do think it's too bright. In any case, I prefer the Heresies much more than my Paradigm Studio 20s. I paid about the same for each pair. I bought used of course.

As far as bass is concerned, I let the SVS take care of that. :happy-smileygiantred:

 

[DIYer]

My room's dimensions are 8.5'H x 11.33'W x 18.33'L.

What I see on that plan is that your listening area may be such dimension but it opens to other areas thus it's not an enclosed 11.33'W x 18.33'L. It's much bigger than that which the sound wave can spread out to.

 

[PaulyT]

I still have my Heresys (30yo model I's), and am still planning to tinker around with them in an active system at some point, that was the main reason I got them. The idea will be to run the woofer off an SS amp (like my Behr A500), and the two horns - using the existing crossover - with a tube amp. And have stereo subs (really just LF drivers) using a 3-way SH crossover. But like many of my projects, this has been on hold for a while, both because I haven't finished enclosing the amp, and the living room space I was thinking to set this system up in is not really suited very well for this after some room rearrangements for other reasons. Not to mention that it's also a band rehearsal space at the moment...

So it was not really a question of directly comparing/preferring Heresys vs. Flint's old MTMs; I never planned to use the Heresys in the HT.

I did not spend a huge amount of time optimizing the setup of the Heresys in a "stock" passive configuration - that is, driven by a single amp. Yes, I did notice that they needed to be toed in or out rather than facing the listener directly, but I found that aiming them inwards as Flint described cause the soundstage to narrow considerably compared to having a toe-in somewhere in between front-facing and facing the listener. But again this was NOT a solid conclusion based on extensive experimentation, and when I did that part I was sitting relatively close to the speakers; it's quite possible that in a better spatial layout - more distance between speakers and listener - things would be different.

 

[Flint]

Paul makes a good point. WHen toeing the speaker in as I have been describing, it is more effective if the speakers are much further apart, not in an equallateral triangle like we often discuss. If the speakers are aimed in at a 45 deg angle, and the listener is a foot or two behind the crossing point of the direct sound, that makes the speakers wider from each other than the listener is from the speakers.

 

[Haywood]

My dream theater would be a pair of Klipschorns, five Heresies, active crossovers with tube amps driving the high frequencies, a perfectly proportioned room with a full compliment of acoustic treatments and an IB subwoofer array. Someday, maybe I'll actually have the money and the space to do it.

 

[Flint]

My dream theater would be a pair of Klipschorns, five Heresies, active crossovers with tube amps driving the high frequencies, a perfectly proportioned room with a full compliment of acoustic treatments and an IB subwoofer array. Someday, maybe I'll actually have the money and the space to do it.

My best friend and former business partner did that one better. He has two K-Horns with the amazing DEQX active crossover / processor and three La Scalas for center and surround. The sound of his HT is absolutely amazing!!! He is using an SVS Ultra-13 for the sub, but someday he hopes to upgrade.

 

[Rope]

Rope