Meier Corda Classic
- Thread starter PaulyT
- Start date
Yeah it's all Walls's fault I got onto this "fix" recently... but hey, it's fun, and the upgrade bug bites occasionally no matter who you are.Ok so I listened to the Corda last night. Formed an opinion. Was kinda tired, wanted to make sure it wasn't just fatigue. Then this morning, after a few cups of coffee, I went and listened first to the same demo tracks I've been using all this week, on the headphone jack of my 885. Then back to the Corda. Then back to the WA6.
Flint you can use the word "placebo" all you like, but one could just as easily apply that to your rating of 50 speakers on a 100 point scale. Can you really discern a difference between an 8.5 speaker and a 9.0? 8.6? One could easily doubt that there's that fine a distinction. In the same way, you doubt what I hear is real. Well that's ok, and there's nothing I can do or say to objectively convince you or anyone else that it is. Note that I'm not talking about subjective preference for the sound of one piece of gear over another; rather, simply whether there's a discernible difference.
I submit, yes there is. I don't mean frequency response, as in "one is 0.5dB higher at 1500Hz compared to the other." No, the main thing I hear is - and I've said this a thousand times but it's really what I listen for most - the precision of the imaging and the breadth of the soundstage. This is not a frequency response thing, but rather (I believe) the dynamics and precision of the little sounds our brains turn into a stereo image. If the sound waves arriving at one ear don't exactly match those in the other, because of some small imperfection, random "distortion", whatever you want to call it, then the brain can't pinpoint the location of that sound as accurately. A better, cleaner transduction system gives a more "real" presentation of the instruments in the mix. No this is not scientific testing and proof, and I don't claim it as such, just my conception of what's going on here, and yet another attempt to describe what I'm listening for. It's very hard to put into words. And for casual listening, the differences are probably pretty much irrelevant, but when you're really concentrating on it... that's another thing.
Going from the 885 jack to the Meier, there is a noticeable improvement in this detail. Soundstage on the 885 is narrower, individual sounds harder to pick out and place in the image. The Meier is pretty good. However, when I go from the Meier to the WA6, it's a further step up in the same way. Detail is just better. Sounds are more clearly resolved. You can call it "presence" or "image" or "layering" or whatever, all these kind of apply in a way but sound ridiculous on the face of it, but I don't know how else to describe it. But ultimately, there is a difference that I/one can hear.
Ok I'll stop now because I know you're all tired of all my words. This was a fun and important experiment for me, personally, and I'm glad I did it. But the Meier, while the best SS headphone amp I've yet heard (not that I have much to compare it to), just doesn't do as well as a good tube amp, and will be sold at some point. I'll be keeping the WA6.
I've just been taking the piss out of you. I don't really believe the stereotypical statements I've been posting.
However, your descriptions of the differences between the solid state amp and the tube amp sound exactly like the difference between every solid state amp and tube amp. Solid state amps tend to sound cleaner, tighter, more dynamic, specific, etc. Tube amps sound more open, airy, wider, more expansive, etc.
I joke about it being distortion all the time, but it really is distortion. Tubes, at least the way they are used today, offer more audible distortion, but since that distortion tends to be very subtle and unnoticeable even order harmonics, most don't recognize it as traditional distortion. It adds to the sound in sometimes positive ways which very many people find pleasing.
I think you have simply proven the point I have been trying to make since my very first day on the forum. There is accuracy and there is taste. Just like you can buy a photograph of the beautiful country-side or you can buy a painting of it. Which is more accurate? Which is more pleasing?
However, your descriptions of the differences between the solid state amp and the tube amp sound exactly like the difference between every solid state amp and tube amp. Solid state amps tend to sound cleaner, tighter, more dynamic, specific, etc. Tube amps sound more open, airy, wider, more expansive, etc.
I joke about it being distortion all the time, but it really is distortion. Tubes, at least the way they are used today, offer more audible distortion, but since that distortion tends to be very subtle and unnoticeable even order harmonics, most don't recognize it as traditional distortion. It adds to the sound in sometimes positive ways which very many people find pleasing.
I think you have simply proven the point I have been trying to make since my very first day on the forum. There is accuracy and there is taste. Just like you can buy a photograph of the beautiful country-side or you can buy a painting of it. Which is more accurate? Which is more pleasing?
D
Deleted member 133
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What I find most impressive with PaulyT's post(s) is that he is striving to explain the reason why he is hearing differences between different amp/tube/headphone combos, in natural (rational, scientific, etc.) terms, rather than supernatural ones.
I come from the "if there's a difference it can be measured" camp, but unlike some in that camp, I recognize the human ear / brain as one pretty fine bit of test gear. The limitation, of course, is in the determination and use of a metric that is conveyable to, and understandable by, others.
So while lab instruments provide very objective "units" of measurement (the "dB" being the most common), in many cases the ear/brain combo does not (at least not unless we actually monitor and display brain activity - which is beyond the ability of, I'm guessing, all of us on this forum).
I have not said that there is no difference. Instead (for sake of discussion) I've simply used the very subjective term "great" (many times!) with the therefore implied challenge of explaining how (and perhaps why) something sounds either greater - or less so.
PaulyT has been the only one to rise to the challenge in these recent threads and for that I applaud him.
Jeff
I come from the "if there's a difference it can be measured" camp, but unlike some in that camp, I recognize the human ear / brain as one pretty fine bit of test gear. The limitation, of course, is in the determination and use of a metric that is conveyable to, and understandable by, others.
So while lab instruments provide very objective "units" of measurement (the "dB" being the most common), in many cases the ear/brain combo does not (at least not unless we actually monitor and display brain activity - which is beyond the ability of, I'm guessing, all of us on this forum).
I have not said that there is no difference. Instead (for sake of discussion) I've simply used the very subjective term "great" (many times!) with the therefore implied challenge of explaining how (and perhaps why) something sounds either greater - or less so.
PaulyT has been the only one to rise to the challenge in these recent threads and for that I applaud him.
Jeff
walls
Well-Known Member
At some point PaulyT either you or I have to try the Meirer against the A2. What you described with the Meier is exactly what I have said about the A2,it sounds congested to me, plays loud but doesn't allow me to hear the fine points of each instrument and doesn't spread them around the room.
I just took it as the A2 not being as good an amp as everyone says it is but maybe it's me, maybe I just don't care for the SS sound signature with my headphones.
Upgraditis hit me early last spring when I finally started tube rolling my Already old LD, then I decided to try a SS amp and bought the A2 but then I just couldn't help myself and wanted to experience what a true upper end tube amp could do so I bought the WA2. Lol.
I *think* the WA2 combined with the excellent Bifrost DAC combined with my HD650's is my nirvana........... Of course I only yet have to put my finishing touches on my BottleHead Crack w/speedball and have been eyeing up the HD800's and Beyer T1's, lol.
I just took it as the A2 not being as good an amp as everyone says it is but maybe it's me, maybe I just don't care for the SS sound signature with my headphones.
Upgraditis hit me early last spring when I finally started tube rolling my Already old LD, then I decided to try a SS amp and bought the A2 but then I just couldn't help myself and wanted to experience what a true upper end tube amp could do so I bought the WA2. Lol.
I *think* the WA2 combined with the excellent Bifrost DAC combined with my HD650's is my nirvana........... Of course I only yet have to put my finishing touches on my BottleHead Crack w/speedball and have been eyeing up the HD800's and Beyer T1's, lol.
Flint said:
Ok but Flint, underlying your statement is the assumption/assertion that SS is inherently more accurate, more dynamic. Is "open" the opposite of "dynamic"? Is solid state necessarily "cleaner" than tube amplification? I don't think so. In fact I think the "micro-dynamics" of the audio system have a lot to do with the reality of the image it presents, and I think a good tube amp does that better. Do I prefer tubes because I like distortion? No. Not in my opinion anyway. :eusa-whistle: We'll have to agree to disagree on that point, but that's ok, we all have our flaws.
bscene-birdiedoublered:
And Jeff - thanks. Yes, it's EXTREMELY hard not to descend into "audiophilia" when attempting to describe these things.
The secondary question, assuming one can hear a difference, is whether that difference is worth the amount of money that (IMHO) is generally necessary to get it. That's a whole different, and much more subjective, question. I'll admit to being a bit crazy in that regard. But as I've said, I spend a lot of time with headphones and so it's worth it to me.
The secondary question, assuming one can hear a difference, is whether that difference is worth the amount of money that (IMHO) is generally necessary to get it. That's a whole different, and much more subjective, question. I'll admit to being a bit crazy in that regard. But as I've said, I spend a lot of time with headphones and so it's worth it to me.
I've been thinking a lot about this, especially this week. But given the hypothesis that differences in sound between headphone amps are greater than differences in sound between speaker amps, I have to wonder - is that true? If so, why? Here's my current thinking: that it's because the headphone system is very artificial in a way, because what your left ear hears is COMPLETELY independent from what your right ear hears. (Well, without crossfeed like this Meier amp has, which I haven't talked about...) Unlike any real instrument sound, or the sound from speakers, where you're always hearing things with both ears. With headphones, it thus becomes even more critical that a waveform produced by a particular instrument be matched very precisely from one channel to the other, given of course the difference in volume that accounts for the stereo separation. But if the sounds in either channel are slightly distorted/randomized/imperfect/whatever, then our ears (as Jeff alludes to) can perceive this, and the result is a fuzziness in the perceived location of that sound left/right (again in my view). That the cleaner the amplification, the more precise the image. This is the main reason I tell Flint that what I'm hearing is not "nicer distortion" but in fact less distortion, less variance from the "real" sound (as real as it is given of course the limitations of the recording gear, the mixing, mastering, etc...). Anyway, with speakers, you're still hearing both speakers with both ears, and I wonder if the brain is more forgiving of slight variations in sonics that way. Of course I have absolutely nothing scientific to back that up, I just think that might help explain why headphone amps are so critical. Yes of course, there's room acoustics too, that's the other big (HUGE) thing that headphones don't have to deal with.
And on the converse side, I have really tried to give serious thought to Flint's (implied) question, is this all in my head? I can only answer that I think I've gained enough experience in listening to audio systems in the past several years to assert there really is an audible difference. But explaining precisely why there is a difference and why I prefer one over the other is really nearly impossible. I have a "world view" in this regard, but it's just an opinion, solidified by experience, but never completely closed to new information and a change in hypothesis.
And on the converse side, I have really tried to give serious thought to Flint's (implied) question, is this all in my head? I can only answer that I think I've gained enough experience in listening to audio systems in the past several years to assert there really is an audible difference. But explaining precisely why there is a difference and why I prefer one over the other is really nearly impossible. I have a "world view" in this regard, but it's just an opinion, solidified by experience, but never completely closed to new information and a change in hypothesis.
I do not think that hearing a difference between amps is all in your head.
One huge difference between headphone amps and loudspeaker amps is the output impedance to input impedance difference. When a loudspeaker amp, the speaker load is between 3 Ohms and 16 Ohms in most of the operating range, even with complex speaker loads, regardless of the speaker being driven. With headphones the load will vary from 16 Ohms to 900 Ohms depending on the headphone model. One amp will probably perform with greater stability into a 16 Ohm load than a 600 Ohm load than another amp with will perform with greater stability into 600 Ohms than into 16 Ohms.
Things like simpler phase angles and lack of crossover components also make headphone listening more revealing of what an amp is doing. We are dealing with very subtle relatively low voltage and current signals here which can actually be impacted more easily.
This is why I use a separate small portable for listening on my Notebook PC - the amp in my PC is poor, at best, but it does a great job with line level signals. So, I use a $25 Fios amp to fix the headphone voltage/load issue.
Where I struggle is that any properly functioning amp will be an amazing performer, in my opinion. I applaud people who will spend hours and hours hunting for the most ideal and perfect amp for their particular headphone of choice, but ultimately any good amp will reveal 99.999% of what is on the recording. It is just that our ears are that much better than 0.001% difference in sound. And, in too many cases, boutique headphone amps technically perform very poorly in the search for a better coloration to the sound.
How much time and money are necessary to enjoy great music? Me, personally, and this is just me, I'd rather listen to something that is 99.999% ideal than spend the rest of my life and tens of thousands of dollars hunting the absolute perfect match.
My old saying about speakers applies to headphones as well - the different between the sound of two headphone models is enormous compared to the difference between two headphone amps. Which should occupy your time and money. I'd rather own a $1,000 pair of headphones driven by a $100 amp than own a $500 pair of headphones driven by a $600 amp. I think the improvement of having the best headphones vastly outweighs any improvement from an amp.
Just the same, this is a hobby and we are merely discussing this stuff intellectually on a forum What brings each of us bliss is our own business and nothing I say should change that.
One huge difference between headphone amps and loudspeaker amps is the output impedance to input impedance difference. When a loudspeaker amp, the speaker load is between 3 Ohms and 16 Ohms in most of the operating range, even with complex speaker loads, regardless of the speaker being driven. With headphones the load will vary from 16 Ohms to 900 Ohms depending on the headphone model. One amp will probably perform with greater stability into a 16 Ohm load than a 600 Ohm load than another amp with will perform with greater stability into 600 Ohms than into 16 Ohms.
Things like simpler phase angles and lack of crossover components also make headphone listening more revealing of what an amp is doing. We are dealing with very subtle relatively low voltage and current signals here which can actually be impacted more easily.
This is why I use a separate small portable for listening on my Notebook PC - the amp in my PC is poor, at best, but it does a great job with line level signals. So, I use a $25 Fios amp to fix the headphone voltage/load issue.
Where I struggle is that any properly functioning amp will be an amazing performer, in my opinion. I applaud people who will spend hours and hours hunting for the most ideal and perfect amp for their particular headphone of choice, but ultimately any good amp will reveal 99.999% of what is on the recording. It is just that our ears are that much better than 0.001% difference in sound. And, in too many cases, boutique headphone amps technically perform very poorly in the search for a better coloration to the sound.
How much time and money are necessary to enjoy great music? Me, personally, and this is just me, I'd rather listen to something that is 99.999% ideal than spend the rest of my life and tens of thousands of dollars hunting the absolute perfect match.
My old saying about speakers applies to headphones as well - the different between the sound of two headphone models is enormous compared to the difference between two headphone amps. Which should occupy your time and money. I'd rather own a $1,000 pair of headphones driven by a $100 amp than own a $500 pair of headphones driven by a $600 amp. I think the improvement of having the best headphones vastly outweighs any improvement from an amp.
Just the same, this is a hobby and we are merely discussing this stuff intellectually on a forum What brings each of us bliss is our own business and nothing I say should change that.
walls
Well-Known Member
Problem is, some headphones will not reach their full potential without the right amp. IMO it's a blanket statement to say that any $100 amp is good enough for any $1000 pair of headphones, it's just not the case.
I keep going back to my 650's with this, the $150 LD sounds much better IMO then the $250 A2, which on paper, should be the better amp all around.
And let's not even get started on amps and orthos....
I keep going back to my 650's with this, the $150 LD sounds much better IMO then the $250 A2, which on paper, should be the better amp all around.
And let's not even get started on amps and orthos....
Obtaining a well matched HP and amp is more difficult than traditional speakers and amp, since HP's offered today have different requirements than those of 10 years ago. Two examples of such phones are the HiFiMan HE-6 and the Beyer T1. Even though the Beyer's are dynamic driver phones they are 900 Ohm, whereas the HE-6's are out and out power hogs.
I agree with Flint's comment concerning the largest difference in sonic improvement is changing headphones, however, matching a set of HE-6, or T1, for example, with an incapable amp will net you unimproved Sonic's and you'd be money and sound ahead to stick with your predecessor phones.
Rope
I agree with Flint's comment concerning the largest difference in sonic improvement is changing headphones, however, matching a set of HE-6, or T1, for example, with an incapable amp will net you unimproved Sonic's and you'd be money and sound ahead to stick with your predecessor phones.
Rope
Flint said:
I agree. I would simply amend that statement by saying that, with a good set of headphones and all other elements in the pipeline being the same, the difference between amps is more apparent than it is in a speaker system. Consequently, the balance in cost between the headphones and the amps is different, compared to speakers and amps. The two systems are parallel, but not EXACTLY parallel.
Flint said:
Oh don't worry. I'm perfectly capable of ignoring you when it suits me. :teasing-neener:
Meier's up for sale. I doubt anyone here is interested, but just in case... I'll give you the Annex discount.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/715538/meier-audio-corda-classic-black-mint
http://www.head-fi.org/t/715538/meier-audio-corda-classic-black-mint