Pre/Pro vs. Pre/Pro

[heeman]

Yeah, here comes one of those crazy how do I really tell the difference in Audio Performance between 2 different Pre/Pro's.............

Not counting Bells and Whistles, just plain difference in Audio Performance.

Yesterday I received the Marantz AV7005 from a rather generous member here and wasn't sure if I was going to hook it up when I got home from work after a rather up and down day. However, I couldn't resist!

The Outlaw 975 was disconnect in no time and replaced by the rather large Marantz on the top shelf of my equipment rack. I got everything connected rather quickly and fired it up!

Walk myself through the Manual Set for Audio, Set the distances and levels and started listening.........

This is where the typical questions come in.

How do you Objectively evaluate 2 components like this...........

Many of you have done this over the years, so I look forward to hearing your opinions.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

The technical audio performance of different pre/pros is going to very similar between models and brands. This is because audio ICs and DSP chips are remarkably similar, and extremely unlikely to have enough difference to be heard (I know, this goes against the "wisdom" of audiophile dogma). What differences exist between models and brands are going to be different processing modes, room EQ options (Dirac, etc), and similar features. Although the actual audible differences between these extra features is going to be small to non-existent, some features may work better in practice, especially in user interface instances, and in their ability to auto-configure in your particular room.

Speakers and other electro-mechanical devices have much more audible impact on how a system sounds, as does the treatment of room acoustics and speaker placement.

Just pick the model which has the features you want, and has enough power to drive your speakers. Cost is a pretty good indicator to robustness of internal construction (at least outside of the lunatic high-end audio realm where extremely high cost doesn't translate into actual audio quality), and a unit's ability to actually deliver the power it says it can.

Just humble musing of someone who works in the factory which makes the sausage.

 

[Flint]

I agree with our esteemed member above.

I will add the one thing I have done to differentiate preamps: Noise Floor

Now, unless you can hear a hiss/hum/fizz when everything is turned on while seated in the listening spot, it doesn't really matter if they might be different, but I tend to think that a quieter preamp is often likely to be the better preamp. So, I actually measure it at the speaker with the volume set to the level I typically do my reference listening at (which is louder than most of you enjoy). I then pause the source device and use a Fluke Multimeter with TrueRMS AC Voltage capabilities and measure the voltage across the speaker binding posts.

If your amps have gain controls you can adjust them to reduce the noise (which means turning up the volume on the preamp to compensate), but that's another topic.

I know it isn't a defining character of absolute superiority, but it works for my emotional love of a preamp.

 

[Batman]

If you hear a buzz from your subs, it's probably not the pre, but I know a guy that knows how to fix that!!!

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

A good part of this "noise" is the DSP processing, and how its algorithms are handled; some bad implementations can produce a surprising amount of noise. Noise in the purely analog sections (which in practice are on the same IC as the digital processing in some cases), is usually not going to be a problem unless those sections were very poorly designed. In many cases, noisy analog sections are due to being designed as an "afterthought" by engineers who mostly do digital.

The purely analog sections today don't have to supply much, if any gain. If there is no gain in a circuit, there is not going to be noise added unless the design is screwed up somehow.

The only analog sections which have any gain are inputs for phono cartridges, and they will always contribute some hiss just because of the amount of gain they have to have (>50dB).

Power amps can also be noisy unless they are well designed.

And of course it is up to the user to make sure the gain structure of the overall system is good, although there is not much of this with a pre/pro/receiver.

 

[Deleted member 133]

As long as the system plays clean at a volume loud enough that I can't hear Gen yelling at me from upstairs to "TURN IT DOWN!" then I know that the signal to noise is ok.



Jeff

ps. I've gotten some hiss when a cat's been sleeping on my lap while I'm watching / listening to something and a sudden dynamic moment startles it awake.

 

[Randy]

@heeman that Marantz is a sweet piece. You will enjoy it I am sure.

Congrats and you suck.

 

[Zing]

How do you Objectively evaluate 2 components like this...........

@heeman, I remember, when you first got the Outlaw, you stating that you were able to discern brushes being used on cymbals that you had previously thought were sticks on some reference track of yours with your previous receiver or pre/pro. If you were able to make such a distinction then, I'm surprised to read that you're now uncertain you'll be able to tell the difference. Am I missing something?

 

[heeman]

^ come on over a witness what I am hearing......

Then help me make the decision.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

^ come on over a witness what I am hearing......

Then help me make the decision.

I'm very curious about that difference since those two ways of playing a cymbal produce very different sounds, at least on every recording I've heard (or in a studio for that matter). What recording are you using because I'd like see how much difference I can hear over my system.

 

[CMonster]

Given your room, I'm more curious if Audyssey brings anything to the table. I thought it definitely improved the sound in the great room at our old house over the Outlaw 990. I also thought Anthem Room Correction did an even better job in that less-than-ideal space.

 

[heeman]

I'm very curious about that difference since those two ways of playing a cymbal produce very different sounds, at least on every recording I've heard (or in a studio for that matter). What recording are you using because I'd like see how much difference I can hear over my system.

Zing will have to refresh my memory for that statement. I do remember a clear difference from the Onkyo AVR using pre outs vs. the Outlaw 975.

 

[heeman]

Given your room, I'm more curious if Audyssey brings anything to the table. I thought it definitely improved the sound in the great room at our old house over the Outlaw 990. I also thought Anthem Room Correction did an even better job in that less-than-ideal space.

I have not run the Audyssey yet. I haven't had any time to play. The system/room sounds fantastic with both units.

 

[Zing]

Maybe I interpreted it wrong but it seemed like you were saying that with your old Onkyo, you thought the drummer was using sticks but now with the Outlaw you can tell he was using brushes.

We decided not to watch a movie and just watch/listen to our typical reference demo stuff.

Dark Knight - Intro and Hong Kong Scene
Despicable Me - Rocket to the Moon
Tron - Ducati Bike, Frisbee and Cycles

Then Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scotts - Cause we ended as lovers and Scatterbrain

We immediately noticed that the audio was not as "in your face", not as shrilly as before. More separation and detail.

With the Jeff Beck Songs what was immediately apparent was the drums in "Cause We Ended As Lovers". The drummer was using brushes instead of sticks, and the quality of the drums was never like I had heard before. The details was.....WOW.

So take it for what it is worth, just my 2 cents.

I did not plan on this purchase, however with the Onkyo on the fritz again, it was time for this move. Outlaw does have a 30 trial period, they pay for shipping back if you decide to return. You pay for shipping to you, $33.

I believe this is a keeper.

 

[Batman]

Actually I suggest rewatching the Tron Legacy light cycle scene. And see if while listening to either pre/pro if the light cycles actually sound like real light cycles or CGI. If they sound like CGI then the pre/pro may be TOO accurate.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Maybe I interpreted it wrong but it seemed like you were saying that with your old Onkyo, you thought the drummer was using sticks but now with the Outlaw you can tell he was using brushes.

Darn, I really wanted to hear that particular recording to hear what was going on.

In the old S&V days, on a jazz recording I furnished, a forum member mistook the sound of brushes swirling on a snare as being tape hiss. I can see how this might happen when speakers do not reproduce the sound of the shell along with the sound of the wires on the snare's head. Also the sound of brushes in rock music is, I imagine, almost non-existent and thus not familiar to many people. The use of brushes is extremely common though in jazz.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Darn, I really wanted to hear that particular recording to hear what was going on.

In the old S&V days, on a jazz recording I furnished, a forum member mistook the sound of brushes swirling on a snare as being tape hiss. I can see how this might happen when speakers do not reproduce the sound of the shell along with the sound of the wires on the snare's head. Also the sound of brushes in rock music is, I imagine, almost non-existent and thus not familiar to many people. The use of brushes is extremely common though in jazz.

That was me!

I still maintain those were very hissy brushes.



Jeff

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

That was me!

I still maintain those were very hissy brushes.



Jeff

Could you refresh my memory as to what song that was? I think it might have been "You're My Thrill" by Shirley Horn, but I'm not sure.

I think the drummer's cat may have been next to the snare, and was pissed off for some reason, thus the "hiss".

 

[Deleted member 133]

Could you refresh my memory as to what song that was? I think it might have been "You're My Thrill" by Shirley Horn, but I'm not sure.

I think the drummer's cat may have been next to the snare, and was pissed off for some reason, thus the "hiss".

While I remember the incident / circumstances, I'm afraid I can't remember the name of the song - or the artist. Just looked through all the "burned" demo discs that I have from the S&V days and I could not identify it.

Jeff

 

[Yesfan70]

^^^ That song sounds like it's on the demo disc Rammis and Flint done back in the S&V days. The one comparing old to new recordings.

EDIT:

Might not be that disc, but I can post the track listings if it jogs some memories.