Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphones

[Deleted member 133]

I'm working in my home office and decided to plug my Denon AH-D5000s into my "new" used desktop computer and listen to a bunch of tunes while working on my book when...

While listening to Tove Lo's Talking Body from her Queen of the Clouds album I noticed something that would never have been noticeable with either of my HT systems: localization of extremely deep bass.

The effect is most obvious between 24s and 38s. After the intro vocals a very deep bass synth comes on which seems to be placed slightly to the right in the soundstage, then it hits again slightly to the left, and then to the centre, and then to what I'll call deep centre. It repeats this once more before the full blown song launches - including the bass drum which serves to drown out the effect. It's not the harmonics that can be "heard" moving around but the fundamental itself. Between 1:28 and 1:42 the bass synth is again noticeable but this time it's firmly centred ie. no movement through the soundstage at all.

My supposition is that only a set of headphones with such outstanding deep bass performance as the Denon's would show the imaging / soundstage effect. So I plugged in a set of AKG K240s (bass-deficient in comparison to the Denons) and sure enough the effect is nowhere to be heard.

While I knew there was no sense in doing so, I played the same track, at volume, in my main HT, and while the bass synth is all there, it's of course not showing any localization (given that my multiple subs, except for the LFE sub, all carry the same signal). I suspect (but I'll leave this up to others to investigate) that even with a system with extremely full-range main speakers set to large (which I tried with my Koss CM/1030s operating in full-range stereo mode with nothing bass-managed to the subs), or even dual subs in stereo mode, that in almost any room the "slight" positioning differences of the bass synth on this track would not be noticeable.

But with the Denons it is.

Advantage headphones.

Jeff

ps. I wonder if the sound engineers on that track did this intentionally, given that almost 100% of the people who listen to it would never notice?

 

[Zing]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

Me and my D7000s will have some input shortly.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

For anyone wanting to try this out, here's a YouTube link to the song. I had a listen and the bass sounds the same as from my ripped copy. The effect is there. I also played the track directly from the CD and if I think about it enough I can convince myself that there's perhaps even a bit more bass extension off the CD. But as I said, this YouTube video shows it quite well.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzRyxGBGiAE[/youtube]

I also had the house to myself this morning so I was able to go back to the main HT and try it again at much louder volumes. Using the CD and setting the F L/R Koss CM/1030 stacks to full range in stereo mode I could not discern any deep bass localization even though the fundamental notes were there. The stacks are pretty much flat down to 27Hz all on their own. However I should point out that when I put the subs back into play, crossing over at their usual 40Hz, I noticed even more of the deepest synth note(s). My guess is that it's somewhere between 20-25Hz, which is why, in my OP, I said that only a set of headphones with the outstanding (very) deep bass capabilities of the Denon's, would be able to reproduce the effect.

Jeff

ps. Yeah I know this all small potatoes in the grand scheme of things, it's just that I post far too little audio, and much more other, shit nowadays and jumped at the chance to do so when I noticed this yesterday.

ps. Along with Avril Lavigne's Sk8er Boi, this track is now part of my headphone demo team!

 

[PaulyT]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

I'll offer a hypothesis. The reason, I think, that bass sounds in a speaker system are not apparently directional is because the waves are so large, compared to the separation between our ears, that each ear is basically getting the same signal as the wave passes by and around the head, regardless of how the head is oriented relative to the sound source and wave direction.

By contrast, headphones necessarily isolate the sounds to individual ears, regardless of frequency. So if a low note sounds only in the left side, only the left ear will hear it, and usual stereo soundstage/directionality will apply.

 

[Flint]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

I'll offer a hypothesis. The reason, I think, that bass sounds in a speaker system are not apparently directional is because the waves are so large, compared to the separation between our ears, that each ear is basically getting the same signal as the wave passes by and around the head, regardless of how the head is oriented relative to the sound source and wave direction.

By contrast, headphones necessarily isolate the sounds to individual ears, regardless of frequency. So if a low note sounds only in the left side, only the left ear will hear it, and usual stereo soundstage/directionality will apply.

I would tend to agree... But... and this is important... much of the research supporting the common belief that bass is non-directional was done using headphones. So, if researchers very carefully running tests to see whether bass is directional using headphones determines it was not directional, then something is definitely different here.

 

[Zing]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

My copy of the CD arrived today and I just put this track to the test.

The first time I played the passage in question, I noticed exactly what Jeff did (right, left, center and center). I then played it 3 more times and, surprisingly, each time it became less and less noticeable (as in not as distinctly right or as distinctly left).

I played it again through the speakers and, much like Jeff, all I noticed was three low bass notes and one very low bass note emanating from somewhere in the room.

I would postulate that those with dedicated stereo left/right subwoofers *coughrammisframmiscough* would be able to confirm this is intentionally in the recording, a weird phenomenon/anomaly or just a figment of our imaginations.

 

[Flint]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

Just a theory (and only just a theory), perhaps there are harmonics at higher frequencies which the bass notes generate when reproduced which cause the effect. Any two notes played together make harmonics at higher frequencies, especially when they are not octaves, so perhaps the higher frequency harmonics are what are making the bass "directional".

Just a theory I poorly expressed.

 

[Zing]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

^A valid hypothesis.

But why would those harmonics be more noticeable with headphones than with a speakers/sub combo?

 

[Flint]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

True stereo separation PLUS the isolation of the bass audio to the ear canal which eliminates the physical stimulation of the body and skull perceiving the bass (and transferring it from the body to the eardrum).

 

[Deleted member 133]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

True stereo separation PLUS the isolation of the bass audio to the ear canal which eliminates the physical stimulation of the body and skull perceiving the bass (and transferring it from the body to the eardrum).

Which brings me back to my "advantage headphones" comment.

But I'm still left wondering why the sound engineer(s) did it when Zing and I are likely the only two people on the planet to have noticed it so far?

Don't get me wrong; I think it's neat that someone took the time to do so (assuming this was not just an accident.) It was certainly one of those "oh wow" moments for me when I first heard it. But this is kinda like painting a masterpiece and then painting a "dogs playing poker" scene overtop of it. Almost nobody will have the time, tools, or inclination to reveal the hidden portrait.

Jeff

 

[Flint]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

It very easily could have gone completely unnoticed by the recording engineers. That happens more often than you'd think.

 

[malsackj]

Re: Something Neat That I've Only Just Noticed With Headphon

I was able to hear the synth notes on the system in my music room. very low volume and very low notes. 30 hz or below and seems like they are -70 db.