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Subwoofer drivers...

TKoP

Well-Known Member
If one were to start looking for a driver to build a DIY subwoofer, what T/S parameters would you look for?

assume, you're looking for something that's
  1. Clean rather than bloaty
  2. Goes reasonably deep -- it doesn't need to hit 2htz, but 20?30?
  3. Can fill a reasonably sized room
I'm pretty rusty, and I don't think I ever got that complete "enlightened" understanding of Q, but I was thinking a Qts<35.... I don't even know where that number came from, it's just something I had in my head. Even if that number is correct, I have no idea what the other T/S parameters "should" be.

For example, I saw this on Madisound -- Link. It looked good from what I could tell and was within the budget of my friend who's got the itch.
 
There are a few questions you need to ask before you can seek out an ideal driver:

1) Do you want a vented enclosure or a sealed enclosure? Sealed enclosures can be smaller, are commonly viewed as being "tighter" sounding (which I don't necessarily agree with), and require more power from the amplifier to play loudly at the lowest frequencies. Vented enclosures perform much deeper, tend to be larger, require careful design and builds (to remain tight sounding), and require less power for those low notes.

2) Do you want to shake the walls down with seemingly unlimited low-end output which seems to come from nowhere?

3) What is your budget for woofer, amp, other components, and enclosure?

4) Do you want a subwoofer which disappears into the system and only makes itself known because your speakers magically have tons of low bass, or do you want to be proud of how amazing your subwoofer is and you cannot wait to share how great it is with all your friends and neighbors? Most people lie about this and claim they want a perfect subwoofer which disappears and just improves the overall sound with its presence, then when they get that after following good advice they hate that they cannot tell it is on all the time and end up turning it up way too high and overpowering their rig - ultimately annoying the family and neighbors.

There you go.
 
As for that SB Acoustics woofer, it is a VERY good driver for the money. However, it isn't designed specifically to be used as a subwoofer. Instead, it is intended as a bass speaker to operate from the 30Hz range up to as high as 800Hz and play very cleanly with a smooth, natural, low THD, dynamic sound. It won't reach into the lowest depths of room shaking bass below 30Hz. In the recommended enclosure and tuning the -10dB frequency (often considered the bass performance limit) is 25Hz. That means you are pretty much limited to a bass speaker which will work great from 80Hz down to 40Hz and can still do okay to about 35Hz and will make sound to about 25Hz. Not terrible - but not great as a subwoofer.

For about the same price, Scan-Speak makes a proper subwoofer:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...s/scanspeak-discovery-30w/4558t-12-subwoofer/
This thing will perform quite well below 30Hz, require a slightly smaller enclosure, and put out clean bass in the sub 30Hz range with a -10dB frequency of 19Hz.


Both of these woofers are best suited for a vented enclosure which is bigger than most people's expectations for a subwoofer.
 
There are a few questions you need to ask before you can seek out an ideal driver:

1) Do you want a vented enclosure or a sealed enclosure? Sealed enclosures can be smaller, are commonly viewed as being "tighter" sounding (which I don't necessarily agree with), and require more power from the amplifier to play loudly at the lowest frequencies. Vented enclosures perform much deeper, tend to be larger, require careful design and builds (to remain tight sounding), and require less power for those low notes.

2) Do you want to shake the walls down with seemingly unlimited low-end output which seems to come from nowhere?

3) What is your budget for woofer, amp, other components, and enclosure?

4) Do you want a subwoofer which disappears into the system and only makes itself known because your speakers magically have tons of low bass, or do you want to be proud of how amazing your subwoofer is and you cannot wait to share how great it is with all your friends and neighbors? Most people lie about this and claim they want a perfect subwoofer which disappears and just improves the overall sound with its presence, then when they get that after following good advice they hate that they cannot tell it is on all the time and end up turning it up way too high and overpowering their rig - ultimately annoying the family and neighbors.

There you go.

  1. Vented. Size - either smaller or bigger -- won't be an issue.
  2. As much as we can within the budget we have
  3. I think if we got it in the $500-$600 we'd be good. With the driver you lined to, that's $250 (rounded), port ~$15, and a plate amp -- was thinking maybe this one - $140. Add another $100 for other stuff and we're right at $500.
  4. Since it's not for me, I can be completely honest -- he'll want to hear it and annoy everyone.
 
As for that SB Acoustics woofer, it is a VERY good driver for the money. However, it isn't designed specifically to be used as a subwoofer. Instead, it is intended as a bass speaker to operate from the 30Hz range up to as high as 800Hz and play very cleanly with a smooth, natural, low THD, dynamic sound. It won't reach into the lowest depths of room shaking bass below 30Hz. In the recommended enclosure and tuning the -10dB frequency (often considered the bass performance limit) is 25Hz. That means you are pretty much limited to a bass speaker which will work great from 80Hz down to 40Hz and can still do okay to about 35Hz and will make sound to about 25Hz. Not terrible - but not great as a subwoofer.

For about the same price, Scan-Speak makes a proper subwoofer:
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...s/scanspeak-discovery-30w/4558t-12-subwoofer/
This thing will perform quite well below 30Hz, require a slightly smaller enclosure, and put out clean bass in the sub 30Hz range with a -10dB frequency of 19Hz.


Both of these woofers are best suited for a vented enclosure which is bigger than most people's expectations for a subwoofer.

Derr.. that was a faux pas. I thought I was in the subwoofer section when I picked that one. Actually I WAS in the subwoofer section when I picked that one. But your points are all valid. And your choice was better obviously. If there was another one in there that was better and only a "little" more expensive, that would be fine too. Or what about two less expensive drivers rather than one?
 
Did some research...

For the money, the Scan-Speak driver I mentioned above is, in my opinion, the best option out there. If you want to spend less, I recommend the Dayton Audio HF subwoofer drivers. It is clean, powerful, and plenty loud - though it needs larger enclosures if you want the best performance.

The amp you linked to has a boost at 30Hz, which is not necessary in a vented subwoofer and thus not appropriate for this project (I assume a larger vented sub is preferred). The same amp without any EQ boost in the bass would be better (LINK).

Now, to the logic - I like to look beyond just a spec or two on the driver and instead look at the entire system.

A woofer with a higher Qts tends to be looser and floppier, so a tighter enclosure, such as sealed or if vented being less resonant, can help with that and solve any potential issues with sloppy bass rumbling too much when it shouldn't. A woofer with a lower Qts may not suffer as much from "ringing", but it also won't have the same bass extension, so to make up for that a vented only design with a huge resonance to help boost the lower part of the output can assist with the performance, but lead to other issues. I find for vented enclosures a Qts between 0.32 and 0.40 is best - but other parameters come into play such as linear excursion, Vas, Fs, and power handling.

A higher Vas is typically associated with higher sensitivity, but it also forced you into larger enclosures if you want deep bass. But a woofer with a low Vas typically has limitations on peak SPL output and such. So, I tend to ignore it until I have to choose between an ideal refrigerator sized enclosure or something smaller.

Power handling is important because bass is not well heard by our ears, as explained by the famous equal loudness curve. So if you want audible bass below 40Hz, it has to be louder than you need at 100Hz and even then if you want it to have dynamics of any kind it has to be even louder. So, a speaker which can handle enough power AND generate enough output below 40Hz, like 110dB SPL, with an amp you can afford would be preferential. Otherwise you need more woofers, enclosures, and amps to make up for lack of max output. Power handling and sensitivity go hand in hand. If the sensitivity is 90dB SPL 1W/1M, then a 100 watt amp will allow the speaker to play as loud as 110dB SPL at 1M in an anechoic environment. If the a different woofer has a sensitivity of 96dB SPL 1W/1M, the same amp can drive the system to 116dB SPL at 1W/1M. That would be perceived as twice as loud. BUT... you also have to take into account peak-to-peak excursion when considering peak acoustic output. Just because the voice coil may not burst into flames with 100W of power driving it, the cone may reach its limits at 75W and anything louder will be distorted and suffer serious dynamic compression giving you that loud steady rumbling in the room while all the sound seem like they should be punchy and dynamic. This is one of the common limitations of affordable off the shelf subwoofers. So, I shoot for a system which can be modelled to perform well at levels about 6dB to 10dB louder than I would ever imagine needing, that way any mistakes in my calculations, manufacturer specifications, or cabinet construction won't limit my real performance.

When I model a subwoofer I assume the bass output is pretty useless at the -6dB SPL point on the response curve. That is just me playing it safe, as room gain can increase the output by as much as 20dB SPL over the measured and modelled anechoic performance. That's a ton of output gain and one reason many home built and even commercial vented subwoofers sound overly boomy and seem to lack "tightness". However, room gain is very difficult to predict until the sub in installed and tuned. So, it is hard to design around unless you really know the room from past experience. The multi-port with foam inserts approach from SVS is one very acceptable way to retune the sub enclosure to better match the performance to the room. My own family room is big boomy, thumpy, echo filled room to start with, so when I sought out a sub and considered building a sub, I knew a sealed sub would be best. This is especially true since I have no plans to address the bass acoustics at all, what with this being a gathering place with a decent stereo - not my reference system. Better would be an infinite baffle, but that's a completely different story. Still, we have to deal with whatever we've got, right?

I like the Scan-Speak driver as it has several specs I find preferable in a subwoofer - low Fs, reasonable Vas (as related to the low Qts), and high enough power handling and sensitivity to produce prodigious bass below 40Hz in a proper enclosure.

If you could tell me about your friend's room where this sub will be installed, I could recommend some cabinet tunings to get a decent performance in that room.
 
Next question... and I imagine you saw this coming... Why a 12" woofer and not a 15" woofer? Larger woofers tend to offer more output and lower extension for the money, but the trade off is slightly higher cost and larger enclosures.
 
Thanks for all the info! Good to have someone with actual experience help with this kind of stuff vs. reading it in a book.

This sub is going to go in his garage with some other speakers we built for him way way back. If it weren't for the garage, I was going to even possibly push an IB arrangement, but there isn't an attic space or other room that he could use for the infinite part...

And I made an assumption about 12" vs. 15" in that the 15" subs were going to be more expensive and jump out of his price range. I just looked, and on Madisound, there were no 15" sub drivers that I saw... they jumped directly to 18" which were DEFINITELY out of his price range. On PartsExpress, they had a few in the 15" range, but the only ones that weren't too expensive were from Dayton, which I thought were supposed to be decent at least, but i was hoping for something a little more. But, truth to tell, he probably wouldn't know the difference... but I would if only in my brain. The only other site I know about is Zalytron, but it looks like that one has shut down.
 
I imagine the Scan-Speak solution discussed above would be overkill in terms of fidelity.
 
Probably... but I would like to have the option for him to put this in a real room at some point. Plus, going with something less didn't look to be THAT much cheaper... unless you think we might get more punch, with less fidelity, with a bigger driver. Like this? Which would mean he'd also probably need a bigger amp? Which if he looked on craigslist, maybe something like this? Doesn't have any of the normal knobs for phase, crossover frequency, etc, but for a garage system?
 
The 18" woofer would be insanely powerful. Even with the same amp it would generate about 4 to 6dB more output than the Scan-Speak because the 18" woofer is more sensitive. Add that it handles more power and you could get a bigger amp and blow up the house.

That said, the 18" woofer would require a much larger cabinet if you want to go with a vented design, which would be great. Requiring something between 7 and 9 cubic feet is not small at all - we are talking a small fridge size box. But it wouldn't be hard to make.
 
I think he'd go for the monstrosity angle... i'm going to pitch the Scan Speak 12" and the Dayton 18" and see what he goes for... Thanks for the input.
 
Hey, just noticed this amp on PartsExpress -- what do you think about having the ability to make changes via a PC?
 
Hey, just noticed this amp on PartsExpress -- what do you think about having the ability to make changes via a PC?

That's a cool idea - especially tuning the satellites' signal. My only issue with it would be running wires and requiring an external power amp for the satellite speakers. If you are cool with the extra wires, likely long ones, and have a power amp for the satellites, it would work great.

In terms of ease of tuning for the sub alone, I never really cared about the need for walking back and forth and trying various settings because once it is done, you don't need to do it again until something significant changes in the system.
 
So as I kind of expected, he decided to go with the big one.. I'm putting together a list of items he'll need to buy. This is the list I came up with that includes different options for the plate amp.


Plate Amp Options
  1. Some Frills 300-Watt Amp - $140 - https://www.parts-express.com/yung-...ofer-plate-amplifier-module-no-boost--301-508
  2. Some Frills 500-Watt Amp - $239 - https://www.parts-express.com/yung-...-amplifier-module-with-6-db-at-25-hz--301-514
  3. No Frills 1000-Watt Amp - $365 - https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-spa1000-1000w-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-809
I guessed at three bags of the acousta stuf filler. I also have some mounting screws he can use. I can't think of anything else he'd have to order online. From there, it's just the MDF, whatever skin he wants to put on it and glue.

On PE's website, they say the vented box would have a 7.5ft^3 enclosure. However, it doesn't give the port diameter or length that I saw.
I ran a calc through WinISD, and it came with a much smaller box... ~4.5ft^3. I did the same here and got the same ~4.5ft^3 volume. On the second, it was tuned to 23Hz as mentioned for the 7.5ft^3 optimum box.
I'm sure I've got something wrong in the T/S parameters or I'm missing something else altogether.

And by Some Frills, I was mostly noting it had a variable 0-180 phase knob vs a 0/180 option
 
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Here's my advice on using the 18" woofer:

  • Enclosure = 6 cubic feet
  • Tuning = 21Hz / 30Hz
  • Effective Ports = 2 each 3" diameter 4-7/8" long (adjust for flare)
    • Open ports for boomiest sound (30Hz tuning / peak at 35Hz / -10dB at 22Hz)
    • Plug one port for High Fidelity and lowest extension (21Hz tuning / -10dB at 17Hz)
    • Plug two ports for sealed enclosure (-10dB at 21Hz)
  • Get any amp with at least 200 watt output (for 115dB SPL at 100Hz) but not with a bass boost like the 500 watt amp you linked to above
  • If you can build a tight, well braced and dampened enclosure, you may not need any acoustic foam or wool inside the enclosure
This will get you massive output as high as 106dB SPL at 17Hz with one port plugged and a 200W amp. With a 900W amp that increases to 112dB SPL at 17 Hz.
 
He's into overkill, but I'll let him know. And <censor> i didn't see the boost in the amp AGAIN. Thanks for heads up.

And when you say "well braced and dampened enclosure", what do you mean exactly? I understand the bracing part, but how to dampen without the foam or wool?

Lastly, what did you use to determine the volume and ports?

Thanks!
 
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Even after bracing there will be some large areas of the enclosure walls left exposed. Applying a mass loaded vinyl or rubber sheet to those areas will control vibrations. The woofer will be pounding the enclosure, so dampening the larger areas of the walls will increase the efficiency of the enclosure and control mechanical resonances.

I used skill and experience to get those dimensions. Apply them to WinISD to see the predicted results.
 
Adding acoustistuff, wool batting, or fiberglass to an enclosure is great for controlling midrange reflections. But for bass where the wavelengths are massive compared to any dimension inside an enclosure, adding sound absorbing materials will lower the efficiency of the resonance mechanism of the enclosure/port. In effect it makes the enclosure behave as if it is larger and the output from the port will be reduced. That might be necessary if you go with my design and the both ports open mode, but for the ideal with one port plugged (21Hz tuning), the model assumes no acoustic dampening.

Sealed, however, often benefits from a some acoustic dampening.

I hope that helps.
 
So I plugged the info into WinISD for the dimensions, and came up with
The internal dimensions of the sub should be 22.1” x 35.37” x 13.26” (WxHxD) BEFORE we include bracing.
Assuming the ¾” MDF is actually ¾”, the external dimensions will be 23.6” x 36.87” x 14.76” BEFORE we include bracing.

Also, these were the graphs I got for two ports, 1 port and no ports
Box - Group Delay.png Box - SPL.png Box - Phase.png Box - Gain.png
 
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