20 Year Old Article - Fascinating

[PaulyT]

As I stated, the target is to produce what is on the recording faithfully. That is the reference.

But how do you know that you've accomplished this? Does this imply that the best system should have 100% flat frequency response? But I know you like a downward slope in your RTA, how does this fit in with being faithful to the recording? Not trying to be challenging here, but simply to understand the measure by which one can gauge how close one is to ideal. (Sorta the same thing I was getting at in my previous post...) Is there - can there even be - something non-subjective that tells us this?

 

[DIYer]

So even if I listen as carefully and critically as possible, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm approaching closer to true fidelity in the sense of this thread. Is there ever a satisfactory answer to "which sounds better - A or B?" Or does it just end with each person's own opinion? That it ends with "ok that's good enough for me"?

I think the problem is how one talks about it, especially on internet forums. Notice how often those typical audiophools use the term "improvement"? They are free to use any terms they like but they usually never follow up with any clarification on what defines such term. Very likely that they don't understand or care. If they like the way something sounds, fine but one needs to know what it is that he / she likes before flapping their lips (tapping their fingers on keyboard in this case).

 

[PaulyT]

Sorry, I know some of you probably feel like we've rehashed this same issue over and over and over... I feel that way myself sometimes. Maybe this time around I'll figure it out. :music-listening:

 

[soundhound]

So if we are not in a position to have heard the live/original sounds, or we listen to studio/electronic/processed music that does not have an "original" sound in the sense above, what are we left with? How do we evaluate the quality of a playback system? Or is it not possible and the whole thing is necessarily and entirely subjective? (Or we rely on marketing departments to tell us the truth? :laughing-rolling

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, how does the "average joe" like me evaluate a system? I mean, I know the process I've used to compare different speakers and electronics, results of acoustic panels, etc. I look for the greatest sense of realism given the reference music I listen to, but it's still pretty subjective. I am not a recording engineer. I was not present when the music was recorded. I do not have a golden ear that can pick out a 0.5dB peak/null at a specific frequency. So even if I listen as carefully and critically as possible, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm approaching closer to true fidelity in the sense of this thread. Is there ever a satisfactory answer to "which sounds better - A or B?" Or does it just end with each person's own opinion? That it ends with "ok that's good enough for me"?

I guess the short answer to your question is that in reality there is no way for the average Joe (or Jane) to know if a speaker system is capable of being accurate to an original live event beyond setting up a live verses recorded test and comparing that speaker to the original live musicians.

But that test is not as impractical as you might think. If you have a microphone which is known to be flat (the Behringer is a pretty good candidate), you could make a recording of a musical instrument outdoors. Then you could play that back in your own room through the speakers you want to evaluate, and compare the recording to the live musician(s). You could take that recording to dealers to evaluate speakers too. If your acoustic memory is pretty good, you wouldn't necessarily need the live musician with you.

Note that the match in a small room will never be exact because you would be close enough to the live instrument to notice the differences in dispersion between a speaker and the live instrument. A musical instrument projects sound from all of its surfaces, and the partials coming from different surfaces are different - you ear will pick up on this compared to the simple piston action of a speaker driver immediately. However you should try to ignore this spatial difference and try to hone in on the tonal differences between the live instrument and the sound produced by the speaker.

 

[PaulyT]

Note that the match in a small room will never be exact because you would be close enough to the live instrument to notice the differences in dispersion between a speaker and the live instrument. A musical instrument projects sound from all of its surfaces, and the partials coming from different surfaces are different - you ear will pick up on this compared to the simple piston action of a speaker driver immediately. However you should try to ignore this spatial difference and try to hone in on the tonal differences between the live instrument and the sound produced by the speaker.

Yeah, that makes sense. For me personally, this is why a lot of my reference material is classical piano, because that's the instrument I've been around my entire life and I have a pretty good feel for what it's supposed to sound like. Though of course each individual piano is unique... Too bad I don't have a grand piano out on my lawn to record.

I think maybe that also partly explains why when I first got seriously into this hobby a few years ago, piano recordings sounded confusing to me, spatially. The sounds just felt like they were coming from the wrong place. Although I suppose that could also be because I'm more used to hearing a piano from the position of the pianist, not the audience.

 

[soundhound]

Yeah, that makes sense. For me personally, this is why a lot of my reference material is classical piano, because that's the instrument I've been around my entire life and I have a pretty good feel for what it's supposed to sound like. Though of course each individual piano is unique... Too bad I don't have a grand piano out on my lawn to record.

I think maybe that also partly explains why when I first got seriously into this hobby a few years ago, piano recordings sounded confusing to me, spatially. The sounds just felt like they were coming from the wrong place. Although I suppose that could also be because I'm more used to hearing a piano from the position of the pianist, not the audience.

You can effectively eliminate the spatial cues between the live and speaker reproduction by simply going outside the room so that all the sound you hear is coming through a doorway.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

I don't know who this SoundHound dude is but he seems to think he is some kind of Smarty Pants. However I know this guy in CA who is a real Einstein, I think he calls himself Altec. He works for or used too for some big fancy speaker company like Altec Lansing/JBL or maybe it was Bose :scared-yipes:

Welcome back SoundHound of the Horns :happy-smileygiantred:

FYI, I have several of the Stereophile demo CD's, with Ralph the dog, plus some by Chesky and one by Seigfreid Linkiwitz. Good stuff to play around with, for you headphone nuts the Linkiwitz CD has some binaural recordings which are interesting.

Speaking of tonal differences I think my Magnepan's and planer type speakers in general are very good at being true to the source in a tonal sense. You know the whole no-box/cabinet/enclosure coloration thing,

 

[soundhound]

I don't know who this SoundHound dude is but he seems to think he is some kind of Smarty Pants. However I know this guy in CA who is a real Einstein, I think he calls himself Altec. He works for or used too for some big fancy speaker company like Altec Lansing/JBL or maybe it was Bose :scared-yipes:

Welcome back SoundHound of the Horns :happy-smileygiantred:

FYI, I have several of the Stereophile demo CD's, with Ralph the dog, plus some by Chesky and one by Seigfreid Linkiwitz. Good stuff to play around with, for you headphone nuts the Linkiwitz CD has some binaural recordings which are interesting.

Speaking of tonal differences I think my Magnepan's and planer type speakers in general are very good at being true to the source in a tonal sense. You know the whole no-box/cabinet/enclosure coloration thing,

Thanks for the welcome!

Binaural is probably the most effective method to recreate the soundfield of an original event. In the early days of Hi-Fi in the 1950s, binaural was more common than it is today. Before the invention of stereo LP playback, the only way to hear binaural or stereo was with stereo tape machines.

I've often thought it would be really cool to produce a multi-track recording of rock music using multiple dummy binaural heads - one on the drums, one on the lead guitar, one on the vocal etc - and then mixing the binaural streams together to form a composite binaural mix to be played back exclusively on headphones or the earbuds of an iPod for that matter.

BTW, the last company that clod Altec worked for was ATI, the company who makes the amplifiers.... I have no idea what he is up to now..... bscene-drinkingdrunk:

 

[PaulyT]

I've often thought it would be really cool to produce a multi-track recording of rock music using multiple dummy binaural heads - one on the drums, one on the lead guitar, one on the vocal etc - and then mixing the binaural streams together to form a composite binaural mix to be played back exclusively on headphones or the earbuds of an iPod for that matter.

I have a band, you have a recording studio (or at least Altec does, right? ) - let's do it! Ok so we're separated by a few miles...

 

[soundhound]

I have a band, you have a recording studio (or at least Altec does, right? ) - let's do it! Ok so we're separated by a few miles...

Yeah, but who is going to chop off the heads of some certified dummies and stick microphones in their ears? Then there is the matter of decomposition.... :teasing-neener:

I think in reality to make a recording like that work, you'd need to have all the musicians in individual isolated rooms so that the pickup of the dummy heads wouldn't cross contaminate acoustically, then all the mixing of the signals could be done purely by electronic means. That would not be impossible to do, but it would take some degree of effort.

 

[Rope]

Yeah, but who is going to chop off the heads of some certified dummies and stick microphones in their ears? Then there is the matter of decomposition.... :teasing-neener:

I think in reality to make a recording like that work, you'd need to have all the musicians in individual isolated rooms so that the pickup of the dummy heads wouldn't cross contaminate acoustically, then all the mixing of the signals could be done purely by electronic means. That would not be impossible to do, but it would take some degree of effort.

Peeeuuueewww! :text-offtopic:

Rope

 

[Zing]

Part One:

As I stated, the target is to produce what is on the recording faithfully. That is the reference.

As we've asked, how can that even be done? Unless we're somehow privy to the engineer's/mixer's/producer's intentions and goals - or have been lucky enough to be present during the live performance/session - how could we possibly know the intent?

Humor me -
I go into my basement and mic up my piano, in such a way to record the precise sound and ambiance I want to achieve, put that recording on a disc and send it to you. You listen to it. Now what? Does it sound good or bad? And more importantly - and to the point - does it sound on your system the way I want it to? How would I know? How would you know? And if I come to visit and tell you that it doesn't sound the way it should, is your stellar system somehow less stellar now?



Part Two:

Just because the engineer may have had poor speakers doesn't change the concept of faithful reproduction of the recording.

I hope I'm not the only one but I sense a contradiction here. If the engineer's speakers were bad, wouldn't that compromise the recording?

 

[soundhound]

Part One:
As we've asked, how can that even be done? Unless we're somehow privy to the engineer's/mixer's/producer's intentions and goals - or have been lucky enough to be present during the live performance/session - how could we possibly know the intent?

The short answer is that you can't. All a person can reasonably do is assure that the reproduction side is as neutral as possible, and this is done by making sure the response at the listening position is devoid of wild swings in response, and that the acoustics of the room are not degrading the sound.

Also, you can create your own live verses recorded test, which will give a reasonably good indication if your system is unacceptably coloring the sound. If your system passes a live verses recorded test, you can be reasonably assured that any other recording you are playing on your system is going to convey what is in the original recording - the sound that is "in the grooves".

However, don't confuse "what is in the grooves" with "what the engineer heard". They could be two wildly different things depending on the speakers the engineer was using, the control room, and his hearing. In a perfect world, the control room speakers and acoustics would also be as neutral as possible, and pass the live verses recorded test.

 

[Zing]

In a perfect world, the control room speakers and acoustics would also be as neutral as possible, and pass the live verses recorded test.

Do (would) many control rooms fail the live vs. recorded test?

 

[soundhound]

Do (would) many control rooms fail the live vs. recorded test?

Of the ones I've worked in I would say that most studios used for classical or orchestral music for film soundtracks (Abbey Road Studio #1, The Radford Studios and the Paramount Scoring Stage in Hollywood are examples) would pass a live verses recorded test. Sometimes engineers bring their own monitors which they're intimately familiar with.

Of the studios used for rock music, I've found that it's all over the map. Additionally, a huge trend nowadays is personal studios in the musician's homes, and those monitors can be in any state of accuracy, or the monitors themselves could be accurate, but the positioning and acoustics of the room could be sub-par; the majority of musicians know very little about the technicalities of audio.

I know my own studio's monitoring chain (my modified Altec Lansing A7-500s) pass the live verses recorded test, but my nearfield monitors (JBL Control 1s) do not.

The best that the home listener can do is assure that their own reproduction chain is neutral as possible.

 

[GreatDane]

It's great to have you here soundhound.

 

[soundhound]

It's great to have you here soundhound.

Thanks!

 

[Barney]

Off topic also..........good to see you around Soundhound..........Altec was too moody... :teasing-neener:

 

[soundhound]

Off topic also..........good to see you around Soundhound..........Altec was too moody... :teasing-neener:

Howdy Barney!

 

[Flint]

It is really wonderful to see you here, SH. Things are more fair and balanced with you here.