Beyerdynamic T1
- Thread starter PaulyT
- Start date
Did my first listening of the T1 this morning, using this rig:
FLAC -> squeezebox -> toslink -> DA8 -> RCA -> WA6 -> T1
:music-listening: :music-listening: :music-listening: :music-listening: :music-listening:
This is a very nice headphone. While it's not miles ahead better than my Denons, it probably beats them by a margin in just about every way. First, let me start with a few observations that were apparent immediately:
First, there's less bass than the Denons - which do have a reputation for slightly boomy bass. It's not to say the bass isn't there; it goes down just as low, it's just more subdued, but also more controlled. I guess it would be sort of like the difference in sound after adding bass traps in a room - it reminded me of Heeman's observation when he did this. That at first, the bass seemed lacking, but then after you get used to it, it has greater definition. I can locate some bass sounds (like the bass drum in my Stravinsky tracks) in the soundstage more easily now. And in Athens to Athens, the kick drum isn't quite as dominant. String bass (Bromberg) and pipe organ (Fox) are quite nice.
(Again referring to my demo tracks here: :text-link: )
Second, it's a little brighter than the Denons. Not much, but noticeable. It does give good resolution in the high sounds, though. I felt the same way when I first got the Woo WA6, too, compared to my previous amp (the Jade). Jury's still out on whether I prefer this treble balance...
Third, these headphones give a more speaker-like presentation. It may be in part because the drivers are angled inward so as to be a bit more aligned with the plane of the ear, rather than being completely perpendicular as most headphones are. You can sort of see that in this picture (not mine) :
The effect, whether it's this angling or something else in the design, is that it takes it a little out of the middle of your head and sounds a bit more like the sound is coming from in front. I sense the same sort of soundstage arc that I usually get with speakers, where the sounds in the center sound like they're a little higher up than things coming from left or right. You folks who have stated your strong preference for speakers because of this directionality may like these headphones. I like it too. It takes a little getting used to, though. It's just different from what I've been experiencing with the Denons for many years.
The soundstage on the T1 sometimes is a little narrower, but sometimes not... it's kinda weird. I think it may be because sounds in the center also feel to me like they're coming from further back, like the arc I mentioned above goes both up and away from me as you move toward the center. Sounds from the left/right seem closer and lower (in height, not frequency). But man... the resolution and depth of the imaging/layering of the T1 is outstanding! Different instruments, for example in the Stravinsky orchestral tracks, can be more accurately located, both left/right and front/back in the soundstage. It's really quite wonderful.
Overall the tonal balance of the T1 is very smooth. It also doesn't get as resonant when things are loud and full, compared to the Denons. This may be in part because of the semi-open design, compared with the Denons being totally closed. Disadvantage is that there's relatively little isolation from external sounds with the T1.
Anyway, first impression is very positive. I'm looking forward to trying the T1 with the A18 next, but probably won't get to it today with other activities happening.
FLAC -> squeezebox -> toslink -> DA8 -> RCA -> WA6 -> T1
:music-listening: :music-listening: :music-listening: :music-listening: :music-listening:
This is a very nice headphone. While it's not miles ahead better than my Denons, it probably beats them by a margin in just about every way. First, let me start with a few observations that were apparent immediately:
First, there's less bass than the Denons - which do have a reputation for slightly boomy bass. It's not to say the bass isn't there; it goes down just as low, it's just more subdued, but also more controlled. I guess it would be sort of like the difference in sound after adding bass traps in a room - it reminded me of Heeman's observation when he did this. That at first, the bass seemed lacking, but then after you get used to it, it has greater definition. I can locate some bass sounds (like the bass drum in my Stravinsky tracks) in the soundstage more easily now. And in Athens to Athens, the kick drum isn't quite as dominant. String bass (Bromberg) and pipe organ (Fox) are quite nice.
(Again referring to my demo tracks here: :text-link: )
Second, it's a little brighter than the Denons. Not much, but noticeable. It does give good resolution in the high sounds, though. I felt the same way when I first got the Woo WA6, too, compared to my previous amp (the Jade). Jury's still out on whether I prefer this treble balance...
Third, these headphones give a more speaker-like presentation. It may be in part because the drivers are angled inward so as to be a bit more aligned with the plane of the ear, rather than being completely perpendicular as most headphones are. You can sort of see that in this picture (not mine) :
The effect, whether it's this angling or something else in the design, is that it takes it a little out of the middle of your head and sounds a bit more like the sound is coming from in front. I sense the same sort of soundstage arc that I usually get with speakers, where the sounds in the center sound like they're a little higher up than things coming from left or right. You folks who have stated your strong preference for speakers because of this directionality may like these headphones. I like it too. It takes a little getting used to, though. It's just different from what I've been experiencing with the Denons for many years.
The soundstage on the T1 sometimes is a little narrower, but sometimes not... it's kinda weird. I think it may be because sounds in the center also feel to me like they're coming from further back, like the arc I mentioned above goes both up and away from me as you move toward the center. Sounds from the left/right seem closer and lower (in height, not frequency). But man... the resolution and depth of the imaging/layering of the T1 is outstanding! Different instruments, for example in the Stravinsky orchestral tracks, can be more accurately located, both left/right and front/back in the soundstage. It's really quite wonderful.
Overall the tonal balance of the T1 is very smooth. It also doesn't get as resonant when things are loud and full, compared to the Denons. This may be in part because of the semi-open design, compared with the Denons being totally closed. Disadvantage is that there's relatively little isolation from external sounds with the T1.
Anyway, first impression is very positive. I'm looking forward to trying the T1 with the A18 next, but probably won't get to it today with other activities happening.
walls
Well-Known Member
I love my T1's, and I will agree that they are not miles ahead of my hd650's but they are better. But this is where the cost factor comes in, wether it's headphones or speakers, after a certain point you have to pay the premium for small increments of performance. And for me, they are worth the price paid.
I also agree with your points about the soundstage, definitely more speaker like then most other cans I have heard except for the HD800's.
I don't find these bright at all, very detailed presentation and layered quite nicely, but that may be our amp differences more then anything else. Heck you could probably tame them quite a bit with different tubes if you wanted.
How do you feel about the comfort?
I also agree with your points about the soundstage, definitely more speaker like then most other cans I have heard except for the HD800's.
I don't find these bright at all, very detailed presentation and layered quite nicely, but that may be our amp differences more then anything else. Heck you could probably tame them quite a bit with different tubes if you wanted.
How do you feel about the comfort?
Comfort seems to be about equivalent to my Denons - which have over-stuffed pads. But I haven't spent many sequential hours with the T1 yet...
Yeah I really haven't done a lot of tube rolling with the WA6. I bought a full set of upgrades, but didn't feel like spending hundreds more on a bunch of different tubes to try. May get to it at some point, though.
Yeah I really haven't done a lot of tube rolling with the WA6. I bought a full set of upgrades, but didn't feel like spending hundreds more on a bunch of different tubes to try. May get to it at some point, though.
walls
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't spend anymore on tubes since you already have the "delux" models. Lol.
Give them a little time, you have had the Denons for a long time and sometimes familiarity trumps all. After spending more time comparing the T1's with the HD650's again I still like the T1's more on most music. The one place I feel that the hd650 will still be my go to set will be just for acoustical music. The outright lushness of the 650's really compliments well recorded acoustic guitar so very well.
So for me my bedside rig, which is where I do the most headphone listening will be the T1's - Ipure dock - Bifrost and my downstairs rig will be the HD650's - Ipure dock - Crack. Shit, the way I see it I can have great sounding music with either rig.
Give them a little time, you have had the Denons for a long time and sometimes familiarity trumps all. After spending more time comparing the T1's with the HD650's again I still like the T1's more on most music. The one place I feel that the hd650 will still be my go to set will be just for acoustical music. The outright lushness of the 650's really compliments well recorded acoustic guitar so very well.
So for me my bedside rig, which is where I do the most headphone listening will be the T1's - Ipure dock - Bifrost and my downstairs rig will be the HD650's - Ipure dock - Crack. Shit, the way I see it I can have great sounding music with either rig.
Yeah, more is good.
I have yet to try the T1 with the DA8+A18... we'll see if that brightness persists. If so, it may just be the headphones and yeah I'll have to get used to it. If not, then maybe different tubes would change something. I sent an e-mail to Jack @ Woo, just to see if he has an opinion on it. I'm certainly not gonna spend time trying out 10 different tubes.
I have yet to try the T1 with the DA8+A18... we'll see if that brightness persists. If so, it may just be the headphones and yeah I'll have to get used to it. If not, then maybe different tubes would change something. I sent an e-mail to Jack @ Woo, just to see if he has an opinion on it. I'm certainly not gonna spend time trying out 10 different tubes.
Sorry folks, I have too many threads going in this section... but I'm gonna continue with this one since it's a follow-up to my post above about the T1. Really, this is about Woo WA6 vs Yulong A18, but I'm doing the comparison this time with the T1 (and the DA8). I debated about putting this in the WA6-vs-A18 thread, but... well here goes.
I just finished listening to this rig:
FLAC -> squeezebox -> toslink -> DA8 -> XLR -> A18 -> T1
That is, same as my previous evaluation of the T1 above, except switching out the amp (and the connection type to the DA8).
I had really high expectations about this setup, based on my experience with the Denon headphones with these two amps, where I actually ended up preferring slightly the A18 over the WA6. (Yeah yeah, preconceptions, bias, yadda-yadda... :eusa-whistle: ) However, I found this combination somewhat lacking. While it the overall tone was nice, and I didn't find the slight edge of brightness that I did with the WA6 (and yeah I ordered another set of tubes to see if I can address that), I found the soundstage to be noticeably less deep. Resolution/imaging left and right was pretty good still, it just didn't have the same sense of three-dimensional groups of instruments that I got with the WA6+T1.
I know I will end up repeating this test, not least because of the new tubes.
Overall, this is reinforcing my "world view" that solid state amps may have the advantage over tubes when it comes to low-impedance headphones. And that tubes may work better with the higher voltages of high-impedance headphones. Maybe because of damping factor, maybe because of current output limitations of tubes, maybe both or neither, I don't know, just speculating, trying to at least come up with some hypothesis to explain what I'm hearing, aside from simple insanity. Or "good distortion."
Oh well, the reason why is less important than the conclusion that, at least this time around, with the T1 I like the WA6 better than the A18.
I just finished listening to this rig:
FLAC -> squeezebox -> toslink -> DA8 -> XLR -> A18 -> T1
That is, same as my previous evaluation of the T1 above, except switching out the amp (and the connection type to the DA8).
I had really high expectations about this setup, based on my experience with the Denon headphones with these two amps, where I actually ended up preferring slightly the A18 over the WA6. (Yeah yeah, preconceptions, bias, yadda-yadda... :eusa-whistle: ) However, I found this combination somewhat lacking. While it the overall tone was nice, and I didn't find the slight edge of brightness that I did with the WA6 (and yeah I ordered another set of tubes to see if I can address that), I found the soundstage to be noticeably less deep. Resolution/imaging left and right was pretty good still, it just didn't have the same sense of three-dimensional groups of instruments that I got with the WA6+T1.
I know I will end up repeating this test, not least because of the new tubes.
Overall, this is reinforcing my "world view" that solid state amps may have the advantage over tubes when it comes to low-impedance headphones. And that tubes may work better with the higher voltages of high-impedance headphones. Maybe because of damping factor, maybe because of current output limitations of tubes, maybe both or neither, I don't know, just speculating, trying to at least come up with some hypothesis to explain what I'm hearing, aside from simple insanity. Or "good distortion."
Oh well, the reason why is less important than the conclusion that, at least this time around, with the T1 I like the WA6 better than the A18.
This morning I pulled out another tool from my headphone arsenal: a high/low impedance step transformer made by Audiotailor, the same fellow who made my Jade tube amp that I used for years. It's a simple passive transformer with high and low impedance 1/4" input jacks. You can use it either for low-impedance cans with tube amps - to present a higher-impedance load to the amp - which is why I originally bought it to try out; or conversely, as I'm using it now, with high-impedance headphones on a solid state amp, to decrease the impedance of the load. With this in the chain, the T1 + A18 combo is improved quite a bit, particularly in depth of soundstage, as I complained about above. Still not as good as the T1 + WA6, though; it seems to be missing a little on the high frequency end.
An interesting experiment, anyway.
An interesting experiment, anyway.
I'm using FLAC (lossless) ripped from CDs, via optical from the squeezebox. So, my assumption is that this is identical to CD. I suppose I could verify this by playing a CD through my computer and using the USB connection to the DA8...
walls
Well-Known Member
I use apple lossless for my iPod and while they claim it's identical to the CD it's recorded from I still get much improved sound quality when I go right from my CD players optical out to the Bifrost then the amp.
And I don't believe that the Ipure is degrading the sound at all since all I am using it for is a way to pass the digital signal to my Bifrost.
And I don't believe that the Ipure is degrading the sound at all since all I am using it for is a way to pass the digital signal to my Bifrost.
Ok it's a reasonable question, and a good experiment to run in any case. I'm setting it up three ways: squeezebox (optical), portable cd player (coax digital), and computer (usb). The very cool thing here is that I can do immediate a/b by having all three simultaneously connected, and simply pushing the input selector button on the DA8. Though of course I only have one physical CD, so I can only a/b squeezebox vs. one of the other two. I will do this for a few of my demo tracks... not gonna do all 15, too tedious.
Experiment performed. Conclusion: all three sources sound identical. And by starting the CD and the squeezebox on the track at the same time, I can do instant a/b on the DAC without even interrupting the flow of the song. Tried it with three tracks from my demo list: Melody Gardot, Shirley Horn, and Rodrigo y Gabriela. In all cases what I hear is the same. And yes Flint the same volume level as well; I have the squeezebox fixed at 100% - it has an option just for this purpose. Changing inputs on the DAC changes nothing.
So I'm reasonably convinced that, within my ability to hear anyway, the FLAC+squeezebox is identical to playing a CD.
Also good to know all these inputs on my DAC are working; and that drivers are installed and windows is playing nicely with the DAC - it is, up to 192kHz. With foobar2000 and a DVD-A plugin, I can also play DVD-audio discs directly from my computer, which is cool.
I only wish the computer could do SACD. I may try sometime hooking up my Sony BDP player up to the DAC; it has a coaxial digital output, though I kinda doubt it can stream DSD through it... my DA8 is capable of decoding DSD, but only if I can figure out how to do the transport. There are DSD ISOs you can download from ... certain places ... may try that at some point, along with a foobar plugin that can play them and according to Yulong's documentation, stream the DSD over USB. It's a lot of work to set up... but may be fun to try.
the same volume level as well; I have the squeezebox fixed at 100% - it has an option just for this purpose. Changing inputs on the DAC changes nothing.So I'm reasonably convinced that, within my ability to hear anyway, the FLAC+squeezebox is identical to playing a CD.
Also good to know all these inputs on my DAC are working; and that drivers are installed and windows is playing nicely with the DAC - it is, up to 192kHz. With foobar2000 and a DVD-A plugin, I can also play DVD-audio discs directly from my computer, which is cool.
I only wish the computer could do SACD. I may try sometime hooking up my Sony BDP player up to the DAC; it has a coaxial digital output, though I kinda doubt it can stream DSD through it... my DA8 is capable of decoding DSD, but only if I can figure out how to do the transport. There are DSD ISOs you can download from ... certain places ... may try that at some point, along with a foobar plugin that can play them and according to Yulong's documentation, stream the DSD over USB. It's a lot of work to set up... but may be fun to try.
Well, after spending more hours with the T1, I am now of the opinion that the physical comfort is less than my Denons (with overstuffed pads). The pads on the T1 are a little firmer and narrower, not as much surface area to spread the pressure around I guess. I may look into replacement pads.