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Fidelity in video has died

Flint said:
......Few will pay extra for all the high definition channels and those that do often forget that the SD channel they are watching has a HD channel on the same TV service. In fact, since nearly everyone has a HDTV at home, why do we even have SD channels on our cable and satellite services anymore? Why?...........



I'll tell you why.....so the providers can get more money out of you. I remember saying the exact same thing on the S&V forums before I even went HD, but felt no one shared that same sentiment. I still feel the same as I do now, the only difference is I caved iand bought into the system. Kids and football season make it harder to walk away now.


Sure, there's Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, and others for alternatives, but then your IP provider will fuck you if you go over your monthly data usage.
 
I agree with Flint's sentiments and I don't think most people care.

I used to really enjoy trying to keep up with the emerging technologies and whoch brands and models were implementing them the best, then trying to help my friends and family make informed decisions in order to get the best performance for their dollar. This proved to be an exercise in futility to say the least.

I also believe in rewarding those companies that build the best product. Sorry Pioneer, your Kuros were amazing but nobody (the general public) cared enough to pay for them.

I cant begin to tell you how many people thought I was absolutely insane for paying $300.00 to have my display ISF calibrated.
 
Yesfan70 said:
Flint said:
......Few will pay extra for all the high definition channels and those that do often forget that the SD channel they are watching has a HD channel on the same TV service. In fact, since nearly everyone has a HDTV at home, why do we even have SD channels on our cable and satellite services anymore? Why?...........



I'll tell you why.....so the providers can get more money out of you. I remember saying the exact same thing on the S&V forums before I even went HD, but felt no one shared that same sentiment.


I'm sorry but you're wrong. You and I may have only HD TVs in our homes but there are millions of non-HD TVs still in use. I see the numbers on a daily basis as technicians in my department install and service television, broadband Internet, and VOIP service. My data suggests that the typical household has one HD set and two non HD sets. It's dangerous to assume that the entire world lives and consumes like you do. Also, there are regulations requiring SD content delivery.

It's the so-called fucking delivered by the service providers that allows them to pay the content providers, pay their employees, buy tools and trucks and test equipment, maintain the infrastucture, invest in new technology and products, design and test and build new STBs and UIs, research improvements in delivery and infrastructure. You're never paying just for the product but also the delivery and support mechanisms. It costs the same to deliver one wired product (TV, Internet, telephone) as it does all three at the same time. When you know what those costs are, and factor that into the business model it's obvious that you have to charge more for individual products than you can (on a per product basis) to deliver all three.
 
Randy said:
I agree with Flint's sentiments and I don't think most people care.

I used to really enjoy trying to keep up with the emerging technologies and whoch brands and models were implementing them the best, then trying to help my friends and family make informed decisions in order to get the best performance for their dollar. This proved to be an exercise in futility to say the least.

I also believe in rewarding those companies that build the best product. Sorry Pioneer, your Kuros were amazing but nobody (the general public) cared enough to pay for them.

I cant begin to tell you how many people thought I was absolutely insane for paying $300.00 to have my display ISF calibrated.

Whether or not you need an ISF calibration depends a lot on the set you buy. I spent the money and ISF calibrated my old CRT HDTV and it made a huge difference. The Samsung LED Light Engine DLP set I have now did not need ISF calibration, because it was possible to dial it in perfectly without one. I knew this before I bought the set based on tons of feedback on the AVS Forums and found it to be completely true when I got the set. I suspect that ISF calibration is going to be generally less necessary with the newer display technologies than it was in the days of CRT.
 
Towen7 said:
I'm sorry but youre wrong. You and I may have only HD TVs in our homes but there are millions of non-HD TVs still in use. I see the numbers on a daily basis as technicians in my department install and service television, broadband Internet, and VOIP service. My data suggests that the typical household has one HD set and two non HD sets. It's dangerous to assume that the entire world lives and consumes like you do. Also, there are regulations requiring SD content delivery.

Even I still have a couple SD sets still kicking around in my kid's rooms (though I do plan to replace them this year). If people like me still have an SD set or two, I have no trouble believing that the general public does as well.
 
As for my input on the topic, I've seen a documentary while ago that rates human senses which the auditory is more sensitive to distortion than vision is to distortion. It must've been from the early days of human life where being able to detect the sound approaching predator or enemy is more critical than seeing them (they'll be hidden anyway).
 
Kazaam said:
"Laserdisc will rise again!!!"

This is a bit off topic, but this thread makes me think of that episode of The Regular Show where Mordicai and Rigby go to the library so that they can watch an old laserdisc movie.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IHvIBF3JO8[/youtube]

"VHS... the VHBest!!!"
"But did you know the brain can only process so much information?"
"VHS... can't tell the difference!"

"44.1kHz ultra high frequency!"

Funny you mention Regular Show. First time I saw it was the commercial for the Last Laserdisc episode. I missed that but did catch a few others (The Diary episode being one and the Golf Cart the other). I think I'm hooked.

I watched the above clip earlier today. My wife didn't get why I was laughing so much. That episode is definitely geared toward us. :laughing: I wonder too if the guys behind Regular Show are Rush fans.
 
everyone is a Rush fan, even the haters know more about Rush than any other band.
 
Towen7 said:
Yesfan70 said:
Flint said:
......Few will pay extra for all the high definition channels and those that do often forget that the SD channel they are watching has a HD channel on the same TV service. In fact, since nearly everyone has a HDTV at home, why do we even have SD channels on our cable and satellite services anymore? Why?...........



I'll tell you why.....so the providers can get more money out of you. I remember saying the exact same thing on the S&V forums before I even went HD, but felt no one shared that same sentiment.


I'm sorry but you're wrong. You and I may have only HD TVs in our homes but there are millions of non-HD TVs still in use. I see the numbers on a daily basis as technicians in my department install and service television, broadband Internet, and VOIP service. My data suggests that the typical household has one HD set and two non HD sets. It's dangerous to assume that the entire world lives and consumes like you do. Also, there are regulations requiring SD content delivery.

It's the so-called fucking delivered by the service providers that allows them to pay the content providers, pay their employees, buy tools and trucks and test equipment, maintain the infrastucture, invest in new technology and products, design and test and build new STBs and UIs, research improvements in delivery and infrastructure. You're never paying just for the product but also the delivery and support mechanisms. It costs the same to deliver one wired product (TV, Internet, telephone) as it does all three at the same time. When you know what those costs are, and factor that into the business model it's obvious that you have to charge more for individual products than you can (on a per product basis) to deliver all three.



Maybe if content providers would quit with all the free incentives to new subscribers (a free fucking iPad from Dish?...Really??), they wouldn't have to make up the difference on the long term subscribers to "pay the content providers, pay their employees, buy tools and trucks and test equipment, maintain the infrastucture, invest in new technology and products, design and test and build new STBs and UIs, research improvements in delivery and infrastructure."

There's also probably millions of people out there who still have their tried and true outdoor antennas and have to rely on a down convertor box to pick up their free TV on their old analog displays. I'm sure the same can be done for sat and cable subscribers who still own and use those TVs as well. If SD content can be shown on a HD channel, then what's the point of even having the SD channel equivalent? Of course, there's a huge difference between a one time $40 purchase on a down convertor box and charging $10 extra for HD content.

I'm not personally attacking you Tom (if you're reply was directed at me). I know you work for AT&T. I know it costs money to provide a TV and/or internet service, but there's nothing justified if new customers are continually given 'free passes' to sign up, while long term LOYAL customers have to pay the max to get the same treatment. I know this, because they ALL change their tune pretty damn quick when you threaten to leave for a competitor.
 
I get where your coming from Wade. I do. For your own sanity try to think of it like buying a car. Once you make the purchase you have to quit looking at pricing. If you were satisfied with the deal when you signed up, you just gotta let it go. That or jump to another provider offering an awesome incentive.
 
Yesfan70 said:
Maybe if content providers would quit with all the free incentives to new subscribers (a free fucking iPad from Dish?...Really??), they wouldn't have to make up the difference on the long term subscribers to "pay the content providers, pay their employees, buy tools and trucks and test equipment, maintain the infrastucture, invest in new technology and products, design and test and build new STBs and UIs, research improvements in delivery and infrastructure."

There's also probably millions of people out there who still have their tried and true outdoor antennas and have to rely on a down convertor box to pick up their free TV on their old analog displays. I'm sure the same can be done for sat and cable subscribers who still own and use those TVs as well. If SD content can be shown on a HD channel, then what's the point of even having the SD channel equivalent? Of course, there's a huge difference between a one time $40 purchase on a down convertor box and charging $10 extra for HD content.

I'm not personally attacking you Tom (if you're reply was directed at me). I know you work for AT&T. I know it costs money to provide a TV and/or internet service, but there's nothing justified if new customers are continually given 'free passes' to sign up, while long term LOYAL customers have to pay the max to get the same treatment. I know this, because they ALL change their tune pretty damn quick when you threaten to leave for a competitor.

The iPad 2 isn't free actually. If you look at the tiers, the price increases $20, $25, & $30/mo respectively for America's Top 120, 200 & 250 12mo introductory packages (which are $30, $40 & $45/mo for 12mos if you sign on w/o taking the iPad) I'm back and forth a bit on the "I'm the longtime customer, give me something" stance. I've been with dish 11-12 years now, although I don't recall the specifics, they WERE running a promotion when I signed up. The collective 12 years haven't all been a 100% walk in the park, but overall I've been happy and they have been pretty good to me about service/technical issues and waiving install charges when I do upgrade. (I usually play the "longtime customer" card when they want to charge me service fees for something). Even If I were unhappy and moved on, there's no guarantee the next provider is going to go above and beyond once the promotional period expires...
 
Towen7 said:
I get where your coming from Wade. I do. For your own sanity try to think of it like buying a car. Once you make the purchase you have to quit looking at pricing. If you were satisfied with the deal when you signed up, you just gotta let it go. That or jump to another provider offering an awesome incentive.

I would love to just let it go, but U-Verse makes that impossible for me. I can get the idiotic $10 High-Definition surcharge waived, but I have to call them every six months and ask them to waive it. Other "discounts" expire annually. If I don't stay on top of all the "promotional" expirations, my bill goes up a LOT. Why should I have to play all these games?
 
Laserdisc will live had me cracking up. I still have a Pioneer Laserdisc hooked up just so when I want to watch Star Wars I can watch the original and not see the crappy altered versions. It's kinda funny but a few days I was talking with a 21 year old girl who works in our admitting department and she had a Star Wars lunchbox (strange for a girl her age) but turns out she is a huge SW fan. I was telling her all about seeing the original in the theater as a kid and how Lucas screwed up the movie with all his alterations and told her how in the original version "Greedo" never even shoots at all at the cantina he is just shot and dies. This blew her mind as she knew there was always controversy about who shot first and I told her in the original only Solo shoots. She was pleading with me to come to my house to watch the original but I told her that might not be a good idea and don't think my GF would want me bringing home a pretty 21 year old girl. I explained all the changes that Lucas made in the first three movies and how it ruined a great trilogy for someone like me who remembers seeing the originals in the theaters.

I am one who thinks music and sound fidelity is lacking and that's because today's younger generation was raised on compressed music and short attention spans. They want everything instantly on their tiny phones and they are happy and since Music studios and movie production company cater to what sells this is the state of things. I haven't bought a CD in almost ten years as music today sucks and I just listen to what I call Good Music on my CD player. Granted I have most of my music stored as 320K on my digital player but prefer CD's.

I've bought two video processors to sharpen up my TV's but I am in the minority as most buyers today are happy with new 1080p LED TV but I prefer my 12 year old Pioneer RPTV as it gives me more of a film like quality and inky blacks with no pixcellation issues. So while others want the latest and greatest I still love my old TV just for far better PQ and not having my movies look like cartoons.

I talk with younger people daily and am amazed they have no clue who The Beatles or Stones are, never heard of Boston or Supertramp and think One Direction who use voice enhances must be far better than The Beatles. I just shake my head. Guess that's why I like older movies so much because the movie was all about the acting and the story and not special effects.

We are a dying breed and much like the cartoon Kazaam posted we are the guardians of a dying technology that today's youth has no interest in learning about.
 
I don't know. I think I am raising some little A/V snobs. You can't grow up with nothing but good speakers and good displays and NOT get used to how they look and sound. My oldest daughter constantly mocks their friends for how the levels at which they blast music on their headphones will soon render them deaf. She keeps her headphone volume down in non-damaging ranges. She tells me that she can actually hear and notice the slight audible difference between a high bitrate lossy file (such as 320k MP3) and an actual CD at least some of the time. When playing her own music in her room, she often opts for an actual disc. She and I have had discussions on the quality of various video files and technologies and how they impact sharpness, color depth and other aspects of picture quality. She's turning into an A/V snob and has no idea she is one.
 
MatthewB said:
she had a Star Wars lunchbox (strange for a girl her age) but turns out she is a huge SW fan.
Matt, while ago, I went out with a chick who lists SW trilogy as her favorite movies of all time. Great a$$ (better than the pic you posted the other day) but... I'll let you fill in the blank. Not common but they are around.
 
MatthewB said:
Laserdisc will live had me cracking up. I still have a Pioneer Laserdisc hooked up just so when I want to watch Star Wars I can watch the original and not see the crappy altered versions. It's kinda funny but a few days I was talking with a 21 year old girl who works in our admitting department and she had a Star Wars lunchbox (strange for a girl her age) but turns out she is a huge SW fan. I was telling her all about seeing the original in the theater as a kid and how Lucas screwed up the movie with all his alterations and told her how in the original version "Greedo" never even shoots at all at the cantina he is just shot and dies. This blew her mind as she knew there was always controversy about who shot first and I told her in the original only Solo shoots. She was pleading with me to come to my house to watch the original but I told her that might not be a good idea and don't think my GF would want me bringing home a pretty 21 year old girl. I explained all the changes that Lucas made in the first three movies and how it ruined a great trilogy for someone like me who remembers seeing the originals in the theaters.

I am one who thinks music and sound fidelity is lacking and that's because today's younger generation was raised on compressed music and short attention spans. They want everything instantly on their tiny phones and they are happy and since Music studios and movie production company cater to what sells this is the state of things. I haven't bought a CD in almost ten years as music today sucks and I just listen to what I call Good Music on my CD player. Granted I have most of my music stored as 320K on my digital player but prefer CD's.

I've bought two video processors to sharpen up my TV's but I am in the minority as most buyers today are happy with new 1080p LED TV but I prefer my 12 year old Pioneer RPTV as it gives me more of a film like quality and inky blacks with no pixcellation issues. So while others want the latest and greatest I still love my old TV just for far better PQ and not having my movies look like cartoons.

I talk with younger people daily and am amazed they have no clue who The Beatles or Stones are, never heard of Boston or Supertramp and think One Direction who use voice enhances must be far better than The Beatles. I just shake my head. Guess that's why I like older movies so much because the movie was all about the acting and the story and not special effects.

We are a dying breed and much like the cartoon Kazaam posted we are the guardians of a dying technology that today's youth has no interest in learning about.

I don't know Matt....I used to think like you, but lately, my viewpoint has changed. At work, my lab technician listens to "popular" music on BBC, and it reminds me very much of the "pop" music of the 80's...very synthesized and with a purpose....to dance. Not to sit and listen as you would with a true "band". But she listens every day and enjoys it through the computer speakers in the lab (she's 23 years old).

For me, I always loved music. What started it for me was listening to Saturday Night Fever on my record player when I was a kid. Obviously, the little speaker in the record player sucked...but I still liked it. Move on to 6th grade and my English teacher played Beach Boys every afternoon if the class performed will on a test. When I was 12, my brother and I had a paper route and I listened on my Sony Walkman every day when delivering papers (cassette tape walkman). Once I gathered enough money, I bought the best speakers I could....Kenwoods along with a Sony receiver and a JVC CD player...this was around 1983 or so. I was happy.

Move on to when I was 17 and went to a friends' father's house. He had built his speakers. They were the size of his wall. No joke...huge. His equipment rack was made of marble, and he had more electronics than I had ever seen before. The Rolling Stones were playing a concert, and he turned it up and I nearly shit my pants. I had never heard sound like that before.....big, spacious, beautiful.

Later, he played Prince's "when doves cry" and, I almost cried. Holy crap!!

He didn't know it, but that moment changed my life. I still listened to music on my Kenwood speakers, but my goal was, when I got enough money, to have a system like that one day. He opened my eyes....my love for music was there...he gave me love of "sound".

Perhaps the "younger people" you meet are alot like me. They love the music of their generation, but haven't been exposed to music of your generation. They also haven't been exposed to music being reproduced correctly. Perhaps, if they were....their lives would change as well.
 
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