From Twin 12's to Quad 15's
- Thread starter Zing
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^LOL I'm doing my best to achieve that.
TrueRTA was giving me fits today. I very nearly launched my laptop through a window. So I abandoned that for now (because I don't want to buy a new laptop) and refined my by-ear adjustments with some assistance from my SPL meter. There are still some frequencies/notes that aren't hitting as hard as they did with my SVS but there are plenty of other frequencies/notes that are hitting harder. I don't know if that's to be expected or if there's something I can do about it.
On top of that, I'm not as thrilled with the symmetrical look as I hoped I'd be.
I knew the XS30 was smaller than my SVS but now that they're in place, I think it looks funny. Maybe I'll get used to it. Or maybe I should pursue my original intention of using the XS30's as speaker stand for my mains. I've currently got the subs as close to each side wall as possible and as deep into corners as possible to try and achieve the deepest extension. So I'm afraid moving them closer to the listening position will reduce the extension I'm looking for. DAMN YOU, RTA! :angry-cussingblack: These are the things I was looking for it to tell me.
OK, enough whining. Onto a legitimate question concerning calibration.
Most everywhere you look and most anyone you ask, you learn that you're supposed to calibrate all 5 speakers AND the sub to the same level. Now and then someone will mention the Radio Shack SPL meter's inaccuracies at lower frequencies and that you should compensate for it. I've pretty much adhered to the chart that SVS provided. The last time I calibrated, all 5 of my speakers were set to 70dB and the sub to 65dB. Now and again I would think that my sub was too hot. Regardless, I kept it that way. Strangely, when I recently mentioned that to TomV, he commented that he thought my sub was about 1dB too low. Interesting.
Anyway, I'd like to put this matter to rest. Do you calibrate all speakers and subs to the same level or do you compensate on the sub? If you compensate, how much?
TrueRTA was giving me fits today. I very nearly launched my laptop through a window. So I abandoned that for now (because I don't want to buy a new laptop) and refined my by-ear adjustments with some assistance from my SPL meter. There are still some frequencies/notes that aren't hitting as hard as they did with my SVS but there are plenty of other frequencies/notes that are hitting harder. I don't know if that's to be expected or if there's something I can do about it.
On top of that, I'm not as thrilled with the symmetrical look as I hoped I'd be.
I knew the XS30 was smaller than my SVS but now that they're in place, I think it looks funny. Maybe I'll get used to it. Or maybe I should pursue my original intention of using the XS30's as speaker stand for my mains. I've currently got the subs as close to each side wall as possible and as deep into corners as possible to try and achieve the deepest extension. So I'm afraid moving them closer to the listening position will reduce the extension I'm looking for. DAMN YOU, RTA! :angry-cussingblack: These are the things I was looking for it to tell me.
OK, enough whining. Onto a legitimate question concerning calibration.
Most everywhere you look and most anyone you ask, you learn that you're supposed to calibrate all 5 speakers AND the sub to the same level. Now and then someone will mention the Radio Shack SPL meter's inaccuracies at lower frequencies and that you should compensate for it. I've pretty much adhered to the chart that SVS provided. The last time I calibrated, all 5 of my speakers were set to 70dB and the sub to 65dB. Now and again I would think that my sub was too hot. Regardless, I kept it that way. Strangely, when I recently mentioned that to TomV, he commented that he thought my sub was about 1dB too low. Interesting.
Anyway, I'd like to put this matter to rest. Do you calibrate all speakers and subs to the same level or do you compensate on the sub? If you compensate, how much?
I would definitely consider asking Tom V. what to do to help you with this set-up.
He is the expert with both the PSA and SVS designs (you already know that), so he totally understands both products in detail and the Pro's and Con's of both in different set-ups and environments.
:twocents-mytwocents:
He is the expert with both the PSA and SVS designs (you already know that), so he totally understands both products in detail and the Pro's and Con's of both in different set-ups and environments.
:twocents-mytwocents:
Zing said:^LOL I'm doing my best to achieve that.
TrueRTA was giving me fits today. I very nearly launched my laptop through a window. So I abandoned that for now (because I don't want to buy a new laptop) and refined my by-ear adjustments with some assistance from my SPL meter. There are still some frequencies/notes that aren't hitting as hard as they did with my SVS but there are plenty of other frequencies/notes that are hitting harder. I don't know if that's to be expected or if there's something I can do about it.
On top of that, I'm not as thrilled with the symmetrical look as I hoped I'd be.
I knew the XS30 was smaller than my SVS but now that they're in place, I think it looks funny. Maybe I'll get used to it. Or maybe I should pursue my original intention of using the XS30's as speaker stand for my mains. I've currently got the subs as close to each side wall as possible and as deep into corners as possible to try and achieve the deepest extension. So I'm afraid moving them closer to the listening position will reduce the extension I'm looking for. DAMN YOU, RTA! :angry-cussingblack: These are the things I was looking for it to tell me.
OK, enough whining. Onto a legitimate question concerning calibration.
Most everywhere you look and most anyone you ask, you learn that you're supposed to calibrate all 5 speakers AND the sub to the same level. Now and then someone will mention the Radio Shack SPL meter's inaccuracies at lower frequencies and that you should compensate for it. I've pretty much adhered to the chart that SVS provided. The last time I calibrated, all 5 of my speakers were set to 70dB and the sub to 65dB. Now and again I would think that my sub was too hot. Regardless, I kept it that way. Strangely, when I recently mentioned that to TomV, he commented that he thought my sub was about 1dB too low. Interesting.
Anyway, I'd like to put this matter to rest. Do you calibrate all speakers and subs to the same level or do you compensate on the sub? If you compensate, how much?
Rat Shack SPL Meter Correction Table
Rope
I'm not unfamiliar with that chart. If someone wants to measure the output at a given frequency, they use their SPL meter and that chart. I'm looking to find out what level to calibrate the subs to. Do I set them at 1dB below the mains? 3dB? 4.5dB?? 6.014327dB?? What?Rope said:
What do you folks do? What level did you calibrate your sub to?
I calibrate my speakers to have a flat response from 20Hz to 200Hz at the listening position. Then above 200Hz I tune the system to have a tilted, but otherwise straight line, response which dropped at about 1dB per octave clear up to 15kHz. Above 15kHz I shoot for any response which isn't louder than the 10kHz to 15kHz range.
So, the sub is calibrated to be the same level in its main operating range as the main speakers in the 100Hz to 200Hz range.
So, the sub is calibrated to be the same level in its main operating range as the main speakers in the 100Hz to 200Hz range.
I wanted to start with a clean slate. Plus, my MobilePre somehow got its volume knobs turned down while it sat unused in the basement for the last year or or two. So I figured I'd better start with a Sound System calibration. No matter what I did, I couldn't get that "straight line" to appear. Finally, I gave up and opened a previous file thinking that the system calibration would still be valid. After a few Quick Sweeps, it was obvious it wasn't working correctly or reading accurately.DIYer said:
Definitely try Tom's advice, the SVS instructions, the Radio Slack recommendations.
But, in the end, you bought the system to please your ears, and that's what you should go with. My humble opinion.
You asked what we all did. I set up my speakers per their instructions, listened and loved everything except the deep bass (it was jumping all over the place, and my ears aren't experienced enough to know what was really going on). I experimented with the sub's placement as much as I could, including facing it sideways and towards the back wall (my cabling is embedded in the walls). Finally found the "best" position, but still wasn't quite happy.
At that point I plugged in the included microphone, mounted it at my head position, and ran my Yamaha's "YPAO" system (think that's what it's called). The deep bass smoothed out fantastic. I haven't touched a thing since, four years now. :music-listening:
But, in the end, you bought the system to please your ears, and that's what you should go with. My humble opinion.
You asked what we all did. I set up my speakers per their instructions, listened and loved everything except the deep bass (it was jumping all over the place, and my ears aren't experienced enough to know what was really going on). I experimented with the sub's placement as much as I could, including facing it sideways and towards the back wall (my cabling is embedded in the walls). Finally found the "best" position, but still wasn't quite happy.
At that point I plugged in the included microphone, mounted it at my head position, and ran my Yamaha's "YPAO" system (think that's what it's called). The deep bass smoothed out fantastic. I haven't touched a thing since, four years now. :music-listening:
^Yes, and remember that the Sealed XS 30'S will perform totally differently than your SVS Ported Sub in your environment.
You don't need an increase in gain by close to the corner placement, they should have plenty of gain no matter where you place them in your room.
The easy way out is to consult with Tom V. :happy-smileygiantred:
You don't need an increase in gain by close to the corner placement, they should have plenty of gain no matter where you place them in your room.
The easy way out is to consult with Tom V. :happy-smileygiantred:
I set my sub and center about 2 dB higher than the rest of the speakers
Suggestion:
Step 1: Join the hometheatershack.com forum and download (free) REW - room EQ wizard
Step 2: Get a decent microphone - check these articles -
http://www.realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328136/measurement-mic-shootout-emm-6-wm-61a-rs-33-2055-audyssey
The Radio Shack mic is inconsistent, even with a calibration file, although it's not too bad for sub measurements
I use the Dayton EMM-6 from Parts express - comes with a calibration file
Step 3: Replace the MobilePre if necessary
Step 3: Read this http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm
Step 4: Run REW and it will tell you exactly what's going on at all freq's - look at the bass with 1/12 octave or higher smoothing, not 1/3
Note: If you have a strong peak somewhere below 80 Hz and it's being used to set the level, then the rest of the sub freq's are too low by comparison. If the peaks & nulls SPL's are too far apart (say 15 dB or more) you may want to try some bass traps in your room (if you don't have any) and also you could try this: http://www.minidsp.com
Write up here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/60893-minidsp-new-sponsor-rew-forum.html
Shoot for the relatively flat SPL settings Flint noted from 20 to 200 Hz
Here is an example: a couple measurements (no graph smoothing) I took with REW on my system: (work in progress, need to fix the XO freqs)
Suggestion:
Step 1: Join the hometheatershack.com forum and download (free) REW - room EQ wizard
Step 2: Get a decent microphone - check these articles -
http://www.realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328136/measurement-mic-shootout-emm-6-wm-61a-rs-33-2055-audyssey
The Radio Shack mic is inconsistent, even with a calibration file, although it's not too bad for sub measurements
I use the Dayton EMM-6 from Parts express - comes with a calibration file
Step 3: Replace the MobilePre if necessary
Step 3: Read this http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm
Step 4: Run REW and it will tell you exactly what's going on at all freq's - look at the bass with 1/12 octave or higher smoothing, not 1/3
Note: If you have a strong peak somewhere below 80 Hz and it's being used to set the level, then the rest of the sub freq's are too low by comparison. If the peaks & nulls SPL's are too far apart (say 15 dB or more) you may want to try some bass traps in your room (if you don't have any) and also you could try this: http://www.minidsp.com
Write up here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/60893-minidsp-new-sponsor-rew-forum.html
Shoot for the relatively flat SPL settings Flint noted from 20 to 200 Hz
Here is an example: a couple measurements (no graph smoothing) I took with REW on my system: (work in progress, need to fix the XO freqs)
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Zing,
Regarding your original question, here's my very simple response: I use either the 70 or 80dB scale on the RS (analogue) meter. Everything gets adjusted to hit "0". I then increase the LFE (sub) output slightly to get a 3-5dB increased reading on the RS, to compensate for its response.
How I do all this with multiple (and different subs) is a much longer story, but that should be all you need do for your set-up.
Jeff
ps. Ok, I'll give a little more info re your dual subs. I assume you're running both off the LFE output so that they see exactly the same signal. Turn one off. Balance the other relative to the system. Turn it off and the other on. Adjust only its settings to match what the other one was doing. Don't change the LFE output while you are doing this second sub - use only the sub's gain etc. At this point both subs should be identically matched to the system. Now turn the other one on and using only the LFE output from your pre, set the LFE level as described way above - essentially treating the two subs as a single sub. Hope that helps.
Regarding your original question, here's my very simple response: I use either the 70 or 80dB scale on the RS (analogue) meter. Everything gets adjusted to hit "0". I then increase the LFE (sub) output slightly to get a 3-5dB increased reading on the RS, to compensate for its response.
How I do all this with multiple (and different subs) is a much longer story, but that should be all you need do for your set-up.
Jeff
ps. Ok, I'll give a little more info re your dual subs. I assume you're running both off the LFE output so that they see exactly the same signal. Turn one off. Balance the other relative to the system. Turn it off and the other on. Adjust only its settings to match what the other one was doing. Don't change the LFE output while you are doing this second sub - use only the sub's gain etc. At this point both subs should be identically matched to the system. Now turn the other one on and using only the LFE output from your pre, set the LFE level as described way above - essentially treating the two subs as a single sub. Hope that helps.
jamhead
Well-Known Member
I calibrated my system using a Rat shack meter and had the speakers and sub at equal levels. Then I used some sine waves I downloaded and worked on the phase of the sub by running the waves at an octave above and below the crossover until each reading was within 1db. Then, I lowered the overall output of the sub by 2dbs from the speakers to compensate for the meter's inaccuracy. Not sure what frequency the calibration disk runs for the sub, but this gave me the best sound for 2 channel music.
Lots of good input here, Guys. Thank you.
I've never used my Audyssey. Perhaps it's time. And as much as I like TrueRTA (when I can get it to work properly), it's always been temperamental for me. Perhaps it's also time to move on to REW.
Jeff - your description is exactly the process I went through Monday night. If you'd like to watch me go through it again, then in my best Bob Barker voice I say to you "COME ON DOWN!"
I find it interesting that all these years, I've had my sub level about 4-5dB lower than my speakers and still thought I was running it a tad hot. It seems it's been 4-5dB too low.
I've never used my Audyssey. Perhaps it's time. And as much as I like TrueRTA (when I can get it to work properly), it's always been temperamental for me. Perhaps it's also time to move on to REW.
Jeff - your description is exactly the process I went through Monday night. If you'd like to watch me go through it again, then in my best Bob Barker voice I say to you "COME ON DOWN!"
I find it interesting that all these years, I've had my sub level about 4-5dB lower than my speakers and still thought I was running it a tad hot. It seems it's been 4-5dB too low.
I know! That's my point. That very graph you're referring was generated from a setup configuration of all 5 speakers set to 70dB and the sub set to 66dB. In fairness though, those 10 decibels were only in the 20-35Hz range. Everything above 35 was much flatter.DIYer said:
No, I'd never say that.DIYer said: