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Little Dot II++ vs AudioTailor Jade

If I understand right (not at all confident of this), the big tube in the WA6 is a rectifier, which means (unlike my Jade) it's part of the power supply and the audio signal does not flow through it directly. So I would imagine the difference in replacing that would be less than the driver/power tubes...

However, as with all things audio, one can spin one's wheels studying specs for eternity. But the only real test that matters is how it sounds, and you can only get that by trying it.
 
You can contact Jack directly, it takes him a couple days to respond but he will tell you outright what tubes are best and what tubes make the most difference, even if he doesn't sell them.

Tube amps are a very slippery slope as the cost adds up quickly..... But man when you finally hit the nail on the head with the right tubes it is glorious. Lol.
 
So I plug my (stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box) Denon AH-D5000s into the output jack on my portable computer and they sound...great.

I then plug them into the output jack on my iPod Touch and they sound...great.

Then I plug them into the headphone jack on my Onkyo 886 an they sound - great.

I'm guessing that I need more good old (very old) tube "sound" since great is obviously not great enough.

Or maybe I need to sip more Holy Water? :)

Jeff
 
Ha! Jeff, it's all about chasing that extra little 5% performance at the top...
 
Let me put it another way for you, Jeff: why do you have so many subs in your HT? Wouldn't it sound "great" to 99.999% of the population without one of them? So why keep them all in there? It's because there's some little extra oomph that you believe it needs - whether it's true or not :eek:bscene-buttred: - to even things out or tighten things up somewhere.

Same for headphones. Or any other bit of audio gear where there's a discernable difference in SQ between one component and another. I submit that I can hear the difference between one amp and another. Between one set of tubes and another. It doesn't matter whether you believe me or not, or whether it sounds "great" with the cheap tubes. I want it to sound FUCKING AMAZING! Once you hear the improvement, you can never go back - the "audiophile" curse.

And headphones are important to me. It's not on occasional use thing. I spend several hours a day listening to headphones while I work. Honestly, I spend more time with headphones than I do with speakers. So it's worth it to me to optimize my gear, as much as time/knowledge/budget permits.
 
JeffMackwood said:
So I plug my (stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box) Denon AH-D5000s into the output jack on my portable computer and they sound...great.

I then plug them into the output jack on my iPod Touch and they sound...great.

Then I plug them into the headphone jack on my Onkyo 886 an they sound - great.

I'm guessing that I need more good old (very old) tube "sound" since great is obviously not great enough.

Or maybe I need to sip more Holy Water? :)

Jeff

Not sure why you would have even posted those comments in this thread. There are tens of thousands of people out there that would listen to your home theater and then say that their BOSE home theater sounds as good or even better, so maybe them or even you need some Holy Water?

Also have you ever actually hooked your Denons up to good dedicated headphone gear and done some serious listening?
 
JeffMackwood said:
So I plug my (stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box) Denon AH-D5000s into the output jack on my portable computer and they sound...great.

I then plug them into the output jack on my iPod Touch and they sound...great.

Then I plug them into the headphone jack on my Onkyo 886 an they sound - great.

I'm guessing that I need more good old (very old) tube "sound" since great is obviously not great enough.

Or maybe I need to sip more Holy Water? :)

Jeff

TROLL ALERT!!!

Rope
 
JeffMackwood said:
So I plug my (stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box) Denon AH-D5000s into the output jack on my portable computer and they sound...great.

I then plug them into the output jack on my iPod Touch and they sound...great.

Then I plug them into the headphone jack on my Onkyo 886 an they sound - great.

I'm guessing that I need more good old (very old) tube "sound" since great is obviously not great enough.

Or maybe I need to sip more Holy Water? :)

Jeff

:laughing-rolling:
 
But I bet they sure look pretty with all the lights off. That's got to account for something.
 
walls said:
JeffMackwood said:
So I plug my (stock, unmodified, right-out-of-the-box) Denon AH-D5000s into the output jack on my portable computer and they sound...great.

I then plug them into the output jack on my iPod Touch and they sound...great.

Then I plug them into the headphone jack on my Onkyo 886 an they sound - great.

I'm guessing that I need more good old (very old) tube "sound" since great is obviously not great enough.

Or maybe I need to sip more Holy Water? :)

Jeff

Not sure why you would have even posted those comments in this thread. There are tens of thousands of people out there that would listen to your home theater and then say that their BOSE home theater sounds as good or even better, so maybe them or even you need some Holy Water?

Also have you ever actually hooked your Denons up to good dedicated headphone gear and done some serious listening?

1. Because it is a thread about headphones and my comments relate to the performance of headphones under a variety of conditions. Since I was coming with the experience of some reasonably decent (non-Bose) headphones I figured it was also semi-relevant to the thread. At no time at all did I ever reference my home theatre, but since you mention it I have no doubt at all that there are a lot of people out there who would much prefer the sound of their own, Bose or otherwise. At the heart of my comment was the question as to how much greater than great can you get, through the use of tubes as opposed to other options. I think PaulyT's response shed some light on the issue quite nicely.

2. Yup. Well not actually my headphones, but the very same pair - at a dedicated hi-end headphone shop in Singapore a few years ago. I got to plug them into several headphone amps - tube and solid state. Some costing much more than a new car. Was the listening "serious"? Not sure. I was having a great time but I wasn't nervous or anything like that - and I knew that my life didn't depend on it. But I did spend a couple of hours listening to everything from the tunes off my iPod to a bunch of stereo SACDs.

Jeff
 
PaulyT said:
Let me put it another way for you, Jeff: why do you have so many subs in your HT? Wouldn't it sound "great" to 99.999% of the population without one of them? So why keep them all in there? It's because there's some little extra oomph that you believe it needs - whether it's true or not :eek:bscene-buttred: - to even things out or tighten things up somewhere.

Same for headphones. Or any other bit of audio gear where there's a discernable difference in SQ between one component and another. I submit that I can hear the difference between one amp and another. Between one set of tubes and another. It doesn't matter whether you believe me or not, or whether it sounds "great" with the cheap tubes. I want it to sound FUCKING AMAZING! Once you hear the improvement, you can never go back - the "audiophile" curse.

And headphones are important to me. It's not on occasional use thing. I spend several hours a day listening to headphones while I work. Honestly, I spend more time with headphones than I do with speakers. So it's worth it to me to optimize my gear, as much as time/knowledge/budget permits.
PaulyT,

I have no doubt at all that you can hear a difference. But what makes the difference an improvement? In what way do the differences between tubes, or the differences between tubes and SS, make one sound amazing, and the other less so?

It's a great quest - to find what you believe to be the very best - but how do you distinguish better "different" and "better" (assuming both are truly incremental, rather than monumental)?

There's a finite number of factors (or elements, or - pardon me saying so - measurements) that can be manipulated by swapping tubes. Noise. Frequency response. Distortion. I assume all dependent on the particular combination of tube and headphone. Is it safe to say that given a really good set of headphones one factor, more than others, comes into play?

In my case I would tend to notice a lack of deep bass response before effects at the opposite end of the spectrum - probably due to my age. I suspect I am only somewhat affected by changes in noise floor (again assuming we're talking about something that's pretty low to start with) but more so by distortion components. But again, unless something has been misbehaving, I've been very hard pressed to find a change / swap that makes the leap into amazing territory.

Or are some combinations simply not very good - which makes others look so much better?

Jeff
 
This was never a tube vs. solid state thread, may have migrated that way through some talk of trying a couple different amps but the idea of this was for PaulyT to compare his Jade to the Little Dot. And that's all it was meant to be, nothing more.

And I am happy that you are easily able to find that your headphones sound great with all of your sources, I wish my reference staple the HD650 was so easily driven. But they are not, they sound fantastic with the right equipment and they sound, quite honestly, like shit out of just my iPod.

Was gonna mail PaulyT out the SCHIIT A2.... Let's see what kind of SCHIIT that stirs! Lol.
 
Walls - threads in this forum tend to go all over the place. Just roll with it. (tube pun intended :laughing: )

Jeff - I'll try to answer your question, but it's about as hard to express objectively as why one would prefer one set of speakers to another. Though really, I think the difference is a lot more subtle than that, but more apparent than the difference between amps with speakers; I think because of the lack of room involvement, it's easier to hear these subtleties with a good set of headphones. The difference between various sets of headphones, though, is definitely as much as you get between various speakers. But that's a whole other issue...

I can't say much about ss vs tubes, because just about all my experience with headphones so far has been with tube amps. That will change in a week or two and I'll re-address it then. I'll just say that the pattern of harmonic distortions in tube amp, some say are less "displeasing" to the ear than those in ss amp output, even if the measured THD in the tube amp is higher.

But for now, these are things I look for, that vary from amp to amp or tube to tube:

- obvious distortion. My headphones (and yours, the D5000) are low impedance, meaning relatively high current, and tubes don't necessarily produce a lot of current. This especially affects the low end where power requirements are greater. With some amps/tubes, you just can't drive the headphones to a reasonable volume, or if you do, you can clearly hear distortion.

- less obvious distortion. I mentioned that with my Jade, I can hear some odd overtones with certain demo tracks. I can't really explain it any better, nor what the origin is. That certainly shouldn't be there, dunno if it's just something weird about my tubes as they wear out, or what. Wasn't there with the Little Dot. The presence of this is a big part of my motivation to upgrade.

- detail. This encompasses dynamics, precision of imaging, and breadth of the soundstage - how "wide" the stereo separation seems. I have a theory that all these are connected, that imprecision in a poorer transducer will to some degree impart random noise/artifacts to the sound, making the left/right waveforms not match as precisely, and hence distorting and narrowing the stereo image. That is, with a poorer amp, the distinct sounds/instruments in the stereo image tend to be more clustered in the center. (This is true of speaker systems too, IMHO.) Headphone maniacs use a lot of different terms for this, but I believe they're all referring to this same basic phenomenon of dynamic detail: "air," "space," "clarity" ... because it's hard to put into words. But personally I hear it mainly in terms of imaging and soundstage, how clear and precise the location of sounds are in the stereo spread, and this is probably the biggest single feature I look for when I'm auditioning these things.

- frequency response. Especially at the high end, some tubes present a brighter sound than others. I don't know if this is RTA response per se, or simply a pattern of distortion that is more apparent in high frequencies... But it's the same thing as bright vs mellow speakers. Again maybe not as huge a difference as you can get between some speakers, but it's there, you can hear it easily enough. And some amps can't put out the power needed to drive the low end - like with the Little Dot, when bass is full and loud, the whole thing can get a bit distorted and mushy.


I think overall the type of sound details you look for in headphones is the same as with speakers. It's just that without the room to complicate things, there's a more direct link between the amp and what you hear through the headphones. This makes the search for a good amp more important, in my view, for headphones than for speakers.


Let me also point out that there's a HUGE variation in impedance between different types/brands of headphones, compared to speakers that vary only from about 4-8 ohm. For example, My Denons are 25 ohm, and a number of other brands like Grado tend to be low impedance. Some of the popular high-end cans around now are high impedance - Senn HD800 are 300 ohm, Beyer T1 are 600 ohm. I think this drives some of the headphone confusion, because it's hard to find an amp that works really well at both ends of this impedance spectrum. Low impedance requires more current, high impedance requires higher voltages. Not all amps can do both equally well.
 
Thanks Pauly,

I have tried a variety of headphones over the years (Denon, AKG, Sennheiser) and with experience I have tended toward lower impedance models as I found that all my sources could drive them to high enough listening levels. This has certainly been the case with the AH-D5000 - and any of the other Denons that I have.

With SS amps (including all of my portables/computers etc.) it has only been about level. They just don't get loud enough - but noise / distortion is not an issue.

When I listened to tube amps it was again with my Denons. I recall them all being able to play as loudly as I wanted - and they all sounded just fine to me. Maybe it was the luck of the draw, or maybe current issues with low impedances don't show themselves as readily as voltage issues with high impedances?

Don't know. I don't have nearly enough experience to draw any firm conclusions of my own.

Jeff

ps. I will say that ever since I got the AH-D5000s, I have tended to slip them on when I wanted to do any critical music listening, more than I have tended to fire up any of my speaker systems. Then again as a teen (long long ago - think 70's) I remember staying up late, and lying in bed with a set of Pioneer SE-505 headphones on, playing records on a Pioneer PL510 turntable (with Shure V15 Type III cartridge) connected to a Pioneer receiver, and despite all the limitations of that system, it still sounded great to me at the time!
 
If there is a difference, that means something somewhere is causing distortion. I'd rather not have any distortion, so I don't use tubes.
 
Purist. :eek:bscene-buttred: All amps distort. Even ss. It's more a matter of whether that distortion is displeasing to the ear.
 
PaulyT said:
Purist. :eek:bscene-buttred: All amps distort. Even ss. It's more a matter of whether that distortion is displeasing to the ear.
:shock: Soundhoud? Is that you?
 
PaulyT said:
Purist. :eek:bscene-buttred: All amps distort. Even ss. It's more a matter of whether that distortion is displeasing to the ear.

^^
THIS.

Rope
 
Rope, I thought you were a tube roller. And because of that I've been not-so-patiently waiting for your participation in this thread. All you've got to say on the matter is "^^ THIS"?

Surely you've got more to contribute.
 
Zing, one shouldn't equate the size (of explanation) for the quality. :snooty: As they say, good things come in small package.
 
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