My 2013 AXPONA show report

[TitaniumTroy]

First off I started my audio journey a day early to go to Audio Consultants in Evanston IL. I listened to the Wilson Audio Maxx3's, which like two other Wilson's I heard before. Over powered the room with their bass. This room did have some bass traps and tube traps in the corners and probably needed more, it was approx. 17'Wx30'L. Wilson owners must have huge rooms, even Johnny Cash sounded boomy to me.

Next up was the Thiele 3.7 they sounded much more neutral than the Wilson's but overall I was not that impressed. In the same room I heard the Magnepan 3.7's which are the newer versions of my 3.6's. not surprisingly the sound was much more to my liking. However I did not hear the improvements they were supposed to have made to the new model vs my 3.6's at home. For that I would need a side by comparison to make that kind of judgement.

Last up for the day was the Magnepan 20.7's a definite improvement in the bass, these go to 25hz vs my 3.6's which go to 37hz. Otherwise they sounded very similar to me despite it being Magnepan's statement speaker. However the room was much smaller than the Wilson's room, so that could have been a factor.

:text-welcomewave: The final account for attendees is around 4,300 the show will return next year to Chicago also. Room rates using the show promo code was $109 a nite, free breakfast (made to oder omelet) everything else self serv. Plus free booze from 5:30-7:30pm this was at the Double Tree. :text-welcomeconfetti:

The 66k Scanea's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJmbNeRxCac I thought this guy was kind of a snob, and the only one wearing a sport coat and even a tie.

More AXOPNA videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMZW1WN7IqU Man Cave Metal, goofy if ya ask me. :teasing-tease:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5__216p3Z0 :think: Good sized room, acoustic treatments, me and about three other guys were told to quiet down, as were talking about how these should sound better. Probably the best video to show you what a nice room looked like there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TkRIeSN2G4 the replica Hartfields in the corners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d92N7JW5q9k For PaulyT and Great Dane :music-listening: PaulyT or Great Dane you know anything about the Aybss headphones?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwvylKZoEfM AIX Records BluRay Surround Sound, no EQ or Compression. I bought two BD and he gave a freebie. :violin:

 

[TitaniumTroy]

First day of show at the Double Tree, first thing you saw walking in the door was a pair of strange looking, Terminator speakers. Supposed to be some kind macho man cave speakers, used good drivers from Legacy speakers but cabinet's were all show, and no go, I'll post a link or a pic later.

I finally got to hear the Audeze LCD 2's & 3's, the 2's sounded a little boomy in the bass. 3's were definitely better they should be as they cost about 1k more. I also heard Hi-FiMan HE400 sounded pretty good. However I still prefered the Audeze because of the angled placement on your head, so the imaging is more like speakers and less like headphones.

The new king ,cost wise of planer speakers is the Abyss, from JPS Labs, at around 5k. They make for quite a look on your head, like something from a Saw movie. It was rather noisy in that room so hard for me to judge how they sounded. For the kind of money those headphones cost I would rather buy the Mini Maggie computer speakers at $1400. Which I also heard at Audio Consultants.

Kingsound Prince III: These electrostatic's won best of show, but not so much for me. Dynamics and bass were very restricted, otherwise they did sound pretty good. Powered by Bob Carver's new tube amps.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/article ... 13-part-1/
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/article ... 13-part-2/
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/article ... 13-part-3/
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/article ... 13-part-4/
http://audio-head.com/what-was-the-most ... pona-2013/ :text-bravo: One of my favorite rooms at the show. I also really liked the younger guy working the room Jonathan Derda. I bought my used Magnepan 3.6's from his dad store. This guy was much better playing new (Lumineer's) and old music, and a mini explanation of who they were. I thought he was a best sales person at the whole show, plus he played my Tron Legacy score, track #4 for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiU_TS4uLec PAULYT this video clip is for you watch till the end please :music-rockout:

 

[TitaniumTroy]

I don't have a favorite speaker for the show but I will tell which ones made the A-Team.

Zen Acoustic: not the deepest bass 40hz but very quick. As they are transmission line loaded bass, they were very nice.

MBL: finally I got to hear the big 60k ones, wish they have would let me play my own music. They have a different sound so hard to quantify it, I thought they had no center imaging till they changed music. Almost got booted temporarily for my seat by the MBL crew so reviewer Jonathan Valin of The Absolute Sound could sit in the sweet spot. But he declined it, good he has probably heard that speaker more times than he count.

YG Acoustics was very high on my list, they look really cool in black aluminum. First time I heard the studio version of Fever by Elvis, amazing dynamics and soundstage. I heard the smaller Carmel and Kipod II's.

Linn Audio, from NH. Had a very nice two way, horn tweeter/midrange and conventional woofer that I was really impressed with.

PeachTree Audio had a neat set up with two sets of speakers, one was the Martin Logan Montis hybrid electrostatic. Great imaging, could play loud in that small room used a DSP controlled woofer. At the the other end was PeachTree Audio's intergrated amp, that allows you to stream direct Mog or Spotify off your iphone to the amp and out to speakers at 320kbps it sounded excellent on their own brand of small two speakers.

 

[PaulyT]

Thanks for the report TT, interesting stuff! I've yet to make it to one of these high-end shows, to see if it's all just hype or if there's really something decent about some of these pricey speakers...

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Focal had two sets of speakers at the show, I liked the smaller three way Scalla Uptopia. Just sounded fantastic.

Of the expensive speakers that did I not like, and all for the same reason are. Scanea a ribbon line source, line source midrange, with six 18 woofers, Focal Grande Utopia's. Von Schweikert, Legacy's Whisper XD. All these speakers had just a huge soundstage, on everything they played. Sometimes people say this about Magnepan's I don't think it's true however.

Scanea's might have been have been my favorite speaker if not for this fact, or the large Focal's. Both had incredible dynamic range, no compression or strain at high levels. I was not as impressed with either the Von Scheweikert's or the Legacy maybe it was the room. All of them had pretty good sized room's though no small one's in this bunch.

Flint has mentioned before that he does not like speakers that have the drivers spaced too far apart, I think I understand why now.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

So Is this how full size point sources sound, too large in scale in relation to the music. Or am I just not a Golden Ear Audiophile, maybe I have ears of lead? I would like to hear the full size YG Acoustics and see if they fair any better. I never noticed this effect on Chris's Dyanaudio speakers, their soundstage seemed to be of the right scale. :text-feedback:

Also the monopole ribbon speakers I heard, like Newform Research, Wisdom Audio, had a forward sound vs my dipole Magnepan's which have a laid back sound. Is that like the nature of the beast for monopole line source's, being forward sounding?

I also picked up some Blu Ray disc's from AIX records, can be played back in 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound. He uses no EQ, or compression, you can listen from an audience or stage perspective I prefer the stage, more info in the surrounds. He had a room with B&W 801's all the way around, except for center channel. He said there was only one best seat in the house, aka: the kings seat. Which is where I was sitting equal distance from all the speakers. However I like listening on my Magnepan's better even if the sep up in the surrounds is not perfect.

Through most of the show I found second row, center was the best seat. First row center was too close for me.

 

[Botch]

Powered by Bob Carver's new tube amps.

Wait, wat?!?

Linn Audio, from NH. Had a very nice two way, horn tweeter/midrange and conventional woofer that I was really impressed with.

When I did my Great Speaker Audition about 3, 4 years ago I fell for the Linns that I listened to, but just one tower cost more than my whole system. I don't think they had horn tweeters, however... (I have never liked horn speakers, blasphemy I know...)

 

[TitaniumTroy]

This huge tower uses a horn midrange http://linnaudionh.com/referencebrochurenew.pdf So Botch what speakers made the list regardless of price?

PaulyT I think the super silly prices on some of these speakers is being marketed more towards the Asian and Middle Eastern crowd. Or so I have read on some other forums. Of course what defines ridiculous pricing is debatable, I guess.

One company was making replica's of the old JBL Hartsfield speaker, this is obviously a corner speaker. Except for being too apart along the long wall I liked the sound of these remakes and liked the looks even more, they were like old school cool. http://classicaudioloudspeakers.com/cgi ... content=26 Click on the link for the Classic line of speaker and the Hartsfield image will pull up.

 

[DIYer]

TT, thanks for the report. It sounds like fun. For me, it's been a long time since I've gone on auditioning spree so I hardly remember the experience. What I do remember clearly is that speakers do sound quite different depending on room acoustics. The best way to audition them would be in one's own listening room but we all know that that's not easy to pull off when trying to audition dozens of speakers especially when they are big and expensive.

If you remember Razz's post on his visit to soundhound theater where the sound stage he perceived was "huge!". Per soundhound's explanation, it has to do with the speaker driver size. In order to achieve the life like sound stage, the size of drivers (& enclosures that house them) do matter. I guess it can't be cheated which is bad news for those who need to factor in the WAF.

Now, if you are looking to upgrade or add another system, I can't help saying that d.i.y. is the way to get the most quality out of the least amount of means.

 

[Deleted member 133]

So Is this how full size point sources sound, too large in scale in relation to the music. Or am I just not a Golden Ear Audiophile, maybe I have ears of lead? I would like to hear the full size YG Acoustics and see if they fair any better. I never noticed this effect on Chris's Dyanaudio speakers, their soundstage seemed to be of the right scale. :text-feedback:

Also the monopole ribbon speakers I heard, like Newform Research, Wisdom Audio, had a forward sound vs my dipole Magnepan's which have a laid back sound. Is that like the nature of the beast for monopole line source's, being forward sounding?

I also picked up some Blu Ray disc's from AIX records, can be played back in 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound. He uses no EQ, or compression, you can listen from an audience or stage perspective I prefer the stage, more info in the surrounds. He had a room with B&W 801's all the way around, except for center channel. He said there was only one best seat in the house, aka: the kings seat. Which is where I was sitting equal distance from all the speakers. However I like listening on my Magnepan's better even if the sep up in the surrounds is not perfect.

Through most of the show I found second row, center was the best seat. First row center was too close for me.

I guess I'm just not up enough on this new fangled terminology because I'm not at all sure what this means.

Is this the same as saying really big speakers pretending to be itsy bitsy ones?

Is "point source" in relation to the sound - or the technology - or both?

Because I have never heard really big (what I would call full size) speakers that sounded small.

I've heard really small speakers trying to sound really big (not too sucessfully!)

I have heard very precise / focussed imaging from both big and small speakers.

And I have heard much more open and diffuse sound from both big and small speakers (my Koss stacks and Bose 901's come to mind respectively.)

I have been to hundreds of live performances (rock, jazz, blues, opera, big band, folk, etc.) featuring everything from massive PAs to no PA at all, with some very big sound in a pretty big space (the Vienna Opera House being the most memorable) and I can't ever recall associating what I was hearing with the term "point source."

So I honestly can't relate this to either my own real world music or reproduced music listening experiences.

As to many of the speakers you refer to: I recognize but a couple and wish I could listen to the others some day. I'm sure you're grinning from ear-to-ear from the experience!

Jeff

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Thanks for your input DIYer, and Jeff.

A point source is supposed to act like a pebble hitting a pond of still water. The resulting ripples/sound waves all radiating from the original impact point. A speaker like the TAD Reference One from Pioneer physically time aligns by using a coaxial driver. A tweeter mounted inside a midrange, Thiele 3.7's do this also.

Another question for the speaker guru's, I heard two version's of the Tad Reference One a floor stand model and a large stand mount. These were in two different rooms, and both to me sounded very forward. To point of being "shouty" I seem to recall an audio reviewer saying they had a "cupped hands on the back of your ears" effect. Or something close to that, but that is what they sounded like to me also. :?:

Well I guess I now know why Thiele and Vienna Acoustic's, use a flat coaxial driver. I was just surprised because the TAD Reference One cost's a good amount of coin, try 78k.

 

[DIYer]

and both to me sounded very forward. To point of being "shouty" I seem to recall an audio reviewer saying they had a "cupped hands on the back of your ears" effect. Or something close to that, but that is what they sounded like to me also. :?:

I don't know how many aspects factor in but one thing that makes sound stage seem "forward" vs "recessed" or laid back is the frequency response. I noticed this when I tried different settings with equalizer. Speakers in the market are voiced certain way by design.

 

[PaulyT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiU_TS4uLec PAULYT this video clip is for you watch till the end please :music-rockout:

Ha! At least he has good taste in demo music. Too bad he doesn't know how to pronounce the name...

 

[Zing]

Too bad he doesn't know how to pronounce the name...

Bone eh mesa. Sounds likes an Arizona restaurant.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Thanks for your input DIYer, and Jeff.

A point source is supposed to act like a pebble hitting a pond of still water. The resulting ripples/sound waves all radiating from the original impact point. A speaker like the TAD Reference One from Pioneer physically time aligns by using a coaxial driver. A tweeter mounted inside a midrange, Thiele 3.7's do this also.

Another question for the speaker guru's, I heard two version's of the Tad Reference One a floor stand model and a large stand mount. These were in two different rooms, and both to me sounded very forward. To point of being "shouty" I seem to recall an audio reviewer saying they had a "cupped hands on the back of your ears" effect. Or something close to that, but that is what they sounded like to me also. :?:

Well I guess I now know why Thiele and Vienna Acoustic's, use a flat coaxial driver. I was just surprised because the TAD Reference One cost's a good amount of coin, try 78k.

Ok. Now I see. It's basically the same as a 30 year old Tannoy!

In that case I have heard some very big Tannoys with such concentric drivers, and liked them very much. In fact my brother-in-law still has a pair which, a few years back, he had re-foamed.

However, other than being concentric, I don't know that they inherently distinguished themselves from other large speakers. They certainly sounded big like other big speakers do (which is probably wht I liked the most about them). Did I think to myself "Wow! That point source imaging is great!"? Nope.

Of course I'd have to listen to a bunch of big speakers, together in a big room, to see how their sonic diffrences impressed me or not. If I ever had the chance. (I have previously posted on such an experience that I had in Hamburg Germany a few years back - that include Khorns.)

Sounds like you've had the chance to compare a bunch of them this week.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Well other speakers try to approximate a point source, by having the drivers at different distance's to the listener. Like B&W 801's, and you can also do it by electronic delay. Or like Flint by having a tweeter in between two midrange's.

I was just surprised by the fact that these mega speakers, sounded so large on things like a solo vocalist or solo instrument. Giving their cost and extensive engineering, I expected a realistic sized soundstage. I know their are trade off's in speaker design, but thought they would have found a way to compensate for this effect. Of course if all you listen to is large orchestral music then I guess it's not a problem at all. :?

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Well Matt lives in AZ, he's probably been Boned in the Mesa, once or twice. I tried to get to all the rooms but sometimes they were too full, so missed the Salk room, sorry about that, Zing.

Heard some Meridian active digital speakers, room was pretty small though. So not sure about their sound.
Janzen: Hybrid electrostatic's had an impressive soundstage, but I think the monopole planer section was too small. They sounded strained in the midrange at medium volume levels.

 

[Deleted member 133]

Well other speakers try to approximate a point source, by having the drivers at different distance's to the listener. Like B&W 801's, and you can also do it by electronic delay. Or like Flint by having a tweeter in between two midrange's.

I was just surprised by the fact that these mega speakers, sounded so large on things like a solo vocalist or solo instrument. Giving their cost and extensive engineering, I expected a realistic sized soundstage. I know their are trade off's in speaker design, but thought they would have found a way to compensate for this effect. Of course if all you listen to is large orchestral music then I guess it's not a problem at all. :?

I think you're mixing "point source" (ie. concentric drivers) with "time coherent" (ie. staggering the drivers so that their respective signals are time/phase aligned when they reach the listener.) B&W does the latter. Tannoy the former. To name two.

Presenting one's drivers on an inclined front panel is nothing new (with woofer closer than mid closer than tweeter). Perhaps it happened earlier but I recall it being de rigueur in the mid 70's. I'm suffering a bit of a brain cramp; do any others who were around and active in audio back then remember the brands that first hit the market using that approach?

In any case, just as I said regarding the big Tannoys, I don't recall thinking at the time that any such "time-aligned" speakers conferred any particularly distinctive auditory characteristics over others that did not make that claim. Big or small.

And again: as to today's crop I simply have insufficient listening experience to say.

 

[DIYer]

I think you're mixing "point source" (ie. concentric drivers) with "time coherent" (ie. staggering the drivers so that their respective signals are time/phase aligned when they reach the listener.) B&W does the latter. Tannoy the former. To name two.

That would be the alignment of voicecoil of drivers so that the sound from tweeter and woofer would arrive to the listener in sync. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker_time_alignment

Presenting one's drivers on an inclined front panel is nothing new (with woofer closer than mid closer than tweeter).

That would be to time align the voicecoil physically and also present off-axis sound character of tweeter or mid driver. Some drivers are said to sound "better" when not listened to at on-axis angle.

 

[Rope]

^^
Time Alignment Diagrams Compliments of FLINT
Example of time aligned speaker: Usher BE-10

Rope