• Welcome to The Audio Annex! If you have any trouble logging in or signing up, please contact 'admin - at - theaudioannex.com'. Enjoy!
  • HTTPS (secure web browser connection) has been enabled - just add "https://" to the start of the URL in your address bar, e.g. "https://theaudioannex.com/forum/"
  • Congratulations! If you're seeing this notice, it means you're connected to the new server. Go ahead and post as usual, enjoy!
  • I've just upgraded the forum software to Xenforo 2.0. Please let me know if you have any problems with it. I'm still working on installing styles... coming soon.

$ Ratio of HP amp to cans...

Flint

Flint

Prodigal Son
Superstar
So today I had the very uncomfortable conversation with a good friend of mine who, in the past, noticed my fancy IEMs and asked me for advice because he was disillusioned by his expensive Bose Quiet Comfort headphones. I had convinced him when he had the money to spend about the same on a good pair of IEMs and gave him a list of good options from companies like Shure, Etymotic, Westone, and such.

Well, he finally had the funds and started doing some independent research and was educated by some other "audiophiles" that his best use of funds would be to spend about 66% on a portable amplifier and the rest on the IEMs. I was aghast!

Here was a guy with $300 to spend and "experts" had completely convinced him that the best possible sound would come from a $200 portable amp and a $100 pair of IEMs... that is simply insane.

I tried and tried to give this guy all the reasons he should spend all of his money on the IEMs and some good sleeves. He was clearly not very convinced by my arguments. I suggested he get the IEMs, then, if in time he wants to get a little better, buy an amp. I talked about my various portable amps and how beneficial they are with various sources and headphones. But, I think he isn't going to take my advice.

What a shame.


Of course, he can do whatever he wants and I am not responsible for his happiness, but damn. I fear he will be terribly disappointed and a truly interested future hifi nut will be lost.
 
Yeah. I'm a believer in spending a proportionately large amount on amps for full-size headphones, but for IEMs with their low power requirements I can't see that it'd be nearly as critical.
 
Even with large over the ear headphones I wouldn't start my journey by dropping anything on an amp. I would strongly recommend the best headphones one could possibly afford... then, after months, or even years, of enjoyment consider upgrading the amp.

As with speakers, the weakest link by a very wide margin in the audio chain is the physical transducer. There is a good difference between a standard PC/Tablet/Smartphone headphone output and a good headphone amp, but that difference is tiny compared to spending $100 on a pair of headphones versus $300 on a pair of god headphones.
 
Wow. That is some really stupid advice. The difference between a $100 set and a $300 is huge compared to the subtle advantages of a separate amp. In my mind, a huge part of the reason for getting a dedicated amp is to deal with the more demanding power requirements of a lot of higher end cans. For IEMs, it is just an optimization and a pretty inconvenient one at that.
 
As power amps relate to most IEMs, rarely do you run across in ear monitor that require additional amplification. However, some full size cans benefit greatly by the addition of a good amplifier. Any can with Ohm rating below 50, you're wasting money on amplifiers.

Rope
 
I am glad to read these posts because I just started the thread about my recent purchase of a new set of Senn HD600's and the responses I got so far are making me feel they are almost useless without spending another a couple hundred on an amp. alto i am sure most are still going to say this high impedance set is whole different ballgame from IEM's.
 
Receive the new headphones and put a few dozen hours of good listening before you decide an amp is really and truly necessary to really enjoy the cans.

I am really disappointed with the emphasis HP amps are given. While I TOTALLY agree a good amp will often improve things, I would still spend more on headphones before adding an amp for the same budget.
 
Well Flint and I have different opinions on the ratio of amp cost to headphone cost that's optimal... :) I would say, this ratio is higher for headphones than for speakers. But I wouldn't spend MORE on the amp than the headphone. (Unless I were simply running an experiment to see if it's worth it...)

I agree though, headphones still come first. Get to know the headphones first, then later on you'll be better able to discern what, if any, difference an amp makes.
 
I just want to cry when I see someone new to headphones buy some good cans and become convinced they will not be able to enjoy them properly until they also spend nearly as much on an amp to drive them. It stifles this hobby and leads people to avoid getting into headphones because the entry point is just too high. I screamed about this same mentality when people were told the same thing about amplifiers starting back in the 1980s and later when cables and power conditioners were "absolutely necessary" for good sound.

I am NOT saying amps are not without impact. I am saying they are not absolutely necessary to enjoy a good set of headphones. And, I still believe that a better set of headphones are usually a better upgrade choice if the ones you are using now are not meeting your tastes. If, however, you love your headphones but think they can sound better - that's when a good headphone amp is potentially a good upgrade.
 
For example... here's a video from The Verge talking about high quality headphone reproduction. In the video it is repeated that the amplifier is "the most influence aspect of the entire pipeline in how your music will actually sound."

http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/30/7467 ... ming-music

That is just fucked up. I can guarantee 100% of the time the headphones have the absolute greatest influence on how the music will actually sound. Period.

It reminds me of when I would walk into the high end shops to listen to a pair of really great speakers and before the sales guy would set things up he would always ask "what amp are you going to drive them with?" as if my amp would determine weather or not I should even consider a given speaker.

Do we want people thinking that they shouldn't even bother with a good set of headphones because there is a prerequisite that they plan on getting a $200+ amp for them or it isn't worth buying any good headphone? Even worse, we tell people that the headphone they choose will determine which amps they should consider - so, not only are they being told they have to buy both an amp and a set of headphones or it isn't worth the effort, we are also telling them that once they make a choice, they are screwed if they don't like the headphones and want to try a different pair of headphones which don't go along with the amp they already dropped $500 on.

Instead, we should be telling them to get some kick ass headphones and if they decide it is time to upgrade or look for improvements, then they could consider a good amp to get a little more from the headphones.
 
Flint, the fact is that some HP amps work obviously better with some types of headphones. With speakers, the impedance range is small - about 4-8 ohm. So the choice of amp doesn't matter so much, as long as you have sufficient power. But with headphones, the impedance range is HUGE - 25-600 ohms. Very few amps are able to perform optimally over such a wide range (without having some output impedance selection switch, which some do). And the sensitivity of headphones can also vary a lot, especially if you throw orthomagnetics into the mix. Simple power out can be important, especially if you're trying to drive them with a small device or a typical laptop headphone jack.

It's just not as straightforward to get a good amp+headphone match as it is with speakers. I've experienced this myself. I have a nice ss amp, a Yulong A18, which sounds wonderful with my low-impedance Denon D5000. But when I tried it with my high-impedance Beyer T1, it sounded very noticeably bad. Not just a little lacking in the "top 5%" quality, but I mean thin and lacking any depth. The T1 works great with my WA6 tube amp. Maybe this is an unusual example, maybe not.

But as I said, I agree that headphones come first.

And for the record, I've never said one can't enjoy a good headphone without a dedicated amp. But I maintain that it's easier to hear the difference between amps with headphones than it is with speakers, so it's worth experimenting if you can, once you get used to the headphones.
 
I understand all the electrical characteristics which make one amp better for one headphone and another amp better for another headphone. I get that. What I am saying is this... should we always tell every single new member to the headphone lovers community that they are more likely to enjoy it if they get an amp, even before the headphones they ordered arrive from the seller? Basically, we are just saying, "Great headphones, get an amp."

That is not encouraging and it is not going to bring more people into the fold. We are becoming a bunch of country-club snobs who will not acknowledge other people's love of audio reproduction unless they go big like us. Do I always, ever single time, tell every subwoofer shopper that the only good option is an IB sub when they ask for advice? Of course not! Is the IB sub the best sounding option? Yes! But most people would never go that route for all the obvious reasons, and I am not going to ruin their enjoyment of getting a good sub for the time by pointing out that an IB sub is better every time they bring up the subject.

We should be encouraging people to experiment, spend money wisely, and learn to love this hobby. Telling them that if they want to own a $500 set of headphones means they really need a $800 budget (because that set of headphones is better with a $300 amp) is just discouraging and depressing. When the headphones arrive they will put them on their heads, plug them into their iPhone or receiver and wonder if they are doing it right. They will question if the amazing sound they are hearing is really all that good and they will hunt for weaknesses in the performance that they believe would be addressed with a new amp.

As we've written about over and over on this forum and others, the mind is incredibly influential over what we hear and how we perceive things. I can TELL you the treble will be harsher if you use a certain cable and even if you intellectually doubt me, subconsciously you will truly believe the sound is harsher when you listen to that cable. That is the problem I am having with all this talk of headphone amps.

We are mostly experienced experts in this field and should be helping others with no experience learn to love this hobby. We should be helping them grow into it only as quickly as they are ready.

I was willing to wait for nearly a year for MattB to realize that having 36 piece of shit center channel speakers precariously balanced on top of his TV was a really poor decision and that one good center channel would be much, much better sounding. He came around, eventually. Same with people who think that buying dozens of shitty subs is better than spending all that budget on one very good sub. People need to be walked into this hobby.

The same goes for those who want to drop the full $50K at once on "the best". Well, the best from my perspective is clearly not the best from everyone else's perspective. So we can argue for hours online about what advice he should listen to, or we could encourage him to take his time, let the money earn interest in the bank (sure, it is low interest these days) and get one piece at a time and learn what he likes as buy the right pieces only when he is ready. That is love of the hobby.

I've seen it a million times - some guy decides he's ready to take the plunge on the headphone hobby and does a ton of research online. Instead of starting with a really good pair of headphones, plugging them into his receiver and learning how to appreciate listening to stereo music over headphones, he falls into the country club discussions and buys two amps and two sets of headphones and starts trying to hear the differences between them. However, as a newbie with little experience with headphones, what he hears is exactly what the online forums tell him to hear. Then he goes online and reports back that what everyone was saying is exactly right and he propagates the myths that everyone else has been saying, even though those myths are based in reality.

In the long run, most of those guys who jump into this esoteric world without first learning to listen and enjoy the sound for themselves end up spending tons of money and going through hundreds of pieces of gear then one day find a new hobby, like cameras or motorcycles, and drop the headphone hobby without ever learning to love the music they hear through headphones. They just shift from one empty obsession to the next empty obsession and are always looking for the Holy Grail some true enthusiasts talk about all the time.

I am obsessed with sound quality, but my Holy Grail is listening to and experiencing music, regardless of the sound quality. Too many of us are obsessed with the gear. That's what I came online in the first place to change. Me and my 5 like-minded good friends - veterans of the war of sound from the music and hifi industries. We each joined different online forums hoping to use logic, observable science, and patience to help people discover the joy of music reproduction, which extended to movie/TV presentation. Our first goal was to quash the myth of the audiophile cable nonsense which was rampant in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The next was to mellow the emphasis on prioritizing electronics over acoustics and speakers. The third was to talk to newbies to help them find some immediate bliss in their entry into this hobby so they would be seeking to improve that bliss rather than seeking to get more toys as appear as cool as the long time enthusiasts with all the gear.

Well... here we are again, me being a dick and climbing on my soapbox to preach about the importance of listening and enjoying what you've got before spending money on what others are saying one needs. Start with the basics, please. Encourage people to listen and enjoy. Let them have fun and discover the world their new headphones open up for them. The difference between the headphone most people have heard their entire lives and really good pair of high fidelity headphones will blow them away BEFORE they need to start learning about amps and other gadgets to make those headphones sound even better. There is not a prerequisite that one also own a good headphone amp in order to enjoy a $300 set of cans. I recommend listening to several hundreds of hours of music with the new headphones before considering upgrades. It will bring bliss to the newbie, of that I am convinced (assuming that person loves listening music in the first place).


Now... will someone please give me a hand getting off this soapbox?
 
It's not a bad soapbox to be on. And if someone came to me and said they got a fancy new IEM, I wouldn't suggest an amp at all, as I'm not convinced that a low power-consuming IEM would benefit, and may even be negatively affected by the noise floor of an amp designed for higher power output. BUT, if someone said "I have a cool new Audeze planar headphone that I plan to use with my iPod nano" I would absolutely suggest getting a dedicated amp. Those are extreme ends of the spectrum, and there's a lot of gray(er) area in between.
 
And yes, if someone comes here and says "I have headphone X (not IEM), should I try an amp?" (as happened just recently in another thread), my answer would generally be "yes - do the experiment!" That's not the same thing as saying, "you'll definitely hear an improvement with a separate amp and your headphones will suck without it" and, speaking for myself anyway, I try to be careful not to phrase it that way. But I think that amplification is a more complex matter with headphones, and I would always encourage people to try it for themselves.
 
Ruminating further... (sorry, yes, I have some opinions on this subject :laughing: )

If someone came to me and said: "I have $1000 to spend on a headphone system. My music is stored on my computer. What should I buy?" My answer would not be "buy a $1000 set of headphones and plug them into the built-in headphone jack on your computer." (And I'm not saying this would be Flint's opinion, either.) I would suggest spending the *majority* on headphones, yes - unless they're set on IEMs in which case I'd worry less about the amp. But I would also want them to get a reasonably decent USB (or SPDIF) DAC + amp combo.

It's a balance, no matter what you do.


And while I'm on my own soapbox here, yet another variable is the person's intent in buying the gear. I have two separate goals - not mutually exclusive, but not identical either - when playing around with headphone gear: One is to enjoy the music. As Flint says, it's not that one can't enjoy music without top-of-the-line gear. Sometimes I just want to sit and be absorbed in the music.

But I'm a geek. I *like* messing around with electronics. And it is important to me personally to answer the question of whether there's truly a difference between various headphones and amps (and for me, in particular, tube vs solid state amps). Sometimes these experiments, as I always call them, are my primary motivation, not the music per se. So for me it is totally worth it to spend a proportionately large amount of money on amps. And I have a tendency, as I've admitted, to encourage others to do the same. Not because it's necessary to enjoy music, but because it can be fun in its own right. I don't apologize for that.

I guess what I'm saying is that the argument is not as cut-and-dry as, in my opinion, Flint makes it seem. Discussions of headphone amps and their various virtues is not the same thing as asserting that they're necessary in order for headphones not to suck. And as in all things audio, there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum, who tend to be the ones making the most noise. And head-fi.org *exists* to be a place for such extremists... :eusa-whistle: so things there have to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. But that doesn't mean they're totally full of shit all the time, either.
 
I think both Flint and PaulyT have done great job of expressing their views on the topic, and that there's lot of common ground in their opinions.

My own advice would be to invest in some good, but very affordable headphones to start, and see if that way of listening is something that really appeals to you, or not, and in what situation(s). Then, if you feel you'll be spending significant amount of time with headphones on, trade, or buy, up to the best pair that you can afford. Don't even think about amps until headphones are an integral part of your lifestyle and you want to explore that incremental improvement that an amp might bring. That could take years and years. (And in my case fornever.)

Isn't that how a lot of us got to where we are today with most of our gear? I don't see how headphones would be any different.

Jeff
 
JeffMackwood said:
My own advice would be to invest in some good, but very affordable headphones to start, and see if that way of listening is something that really appeals to you, or not, and in what situation(s).
Click to expand...

THIS!

I had an opportunity to get a pair of "better than average" Bowers and Wilkins headphones and jumped on it because I was sure that I'd spend lots of time listening to music that way. Well, it hasn't worked out, at least not yet. I do want to listen to music on headphones but ... I quickly got tired of my wife being upset because she called for me and I didn't hear her, and missing phone calls. I don't have a lot of spare time so when I put on headphones my family got the feeling that I was ignoring them (which was true on some level) and wanted to spend even less time with them. My point is that for me, going overboard on HP gear before I'd come to the conclusion that it doesn't fit into my lifestyle right now would have been a huge waste of money.
 
Great input on this subject. I agree with all opinions so far. Great job.

Hey, I love my expensive cans and tube amp ($1,600+) but every day while I work I enjoy listening to my huge music library randomly synced to a $50 shuffle and $10 Philips "Earhook" earbuds.

To me it's all about the love of music.
 
I am not a headphone guy, mostly for the reasons expressed by Tom. But I have learned a lot by reading this thread.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top