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Why shouldn't I build a fullrange speaker?

milpool

Active Member
Nice to see so many old friends here!

I've been contemplating/researching a DIY speaker project for a few years. I think I have found what I'm looking for, but I am looking for some opinions. I like the idea of building one of the http://www.commonsenseaudio.com designs. I'd like to build the 5.6 enclosure for the Audio Nirvana Super 15 Cast Frame fullrange driver. They are pretty proud of themselves on that website. But I have never really auditioned a fullrange speaker before. They try to address the traditional fullrange complaints (poor high frequency performance), and they certainly don't pretend to have a ruler flat frequency response. But their is something very appealing about point source drivers, and no crossovers. Anyway, I would love to hear you guys chime in on anything related to fullrange speakers.
 

PaulyT

Behind the Curtain
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Superstar
Hey milpool! Good to see you here. What took you so long? ;)

:text-welcomeconfetti:


BTW I have no clue about these coax speakers... just saying hello. :happy-smileygiantred:
 

milpool

Active Member
Here is an example. That's a 15" fullrange speaker. (Not a coax...btw).


'5.6' (44T x 18.75W x 14.75D inches
 

milpool

Active Member
Hey Pauly! Thank you (and some others) for making sure I got here. Sorry I have been absent for about a year. Sometime priorities change. But I am feeling "the bug" again. Ugh...
 

PaulyT

Behind the Curtain
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Superstar
Ah, yes I see - not coax, I didn't read carefully enough. Hmm... well, Flint (IG from S&V) is probably the one to comment on this type of driver. I'd be curious to know if there's anything to these, as well.
 

MatthewB

Grandmaster Pimp Daddy
Famous
Milpool glad to see you here, thought for a second you were in hiding especially after all the craziness lately down in Tucson. btw that shopping center is the one my folks go to and I hung out at when in high school after football games. Creepy huh? Anyway bud glad to see you here.

As for full range speakers check out Craigslist, there is a buttload on the Tucson Craigslist all the time. Might have to be refaomed or new drivers but that's pretty cheap.
 

milpool

Active Member
Hey Matt! Good to hear from you buddy. All is well here. I hope the same for you. I'm trying to field some opinions on singular fullrange drivers, not multi-driver speakers. They certainly are not popular, and I wonder if many here have listened to them, or have any knowlegde about them. If memory serves, Flint had a pair of Tannoys in his listing of speaker rankings (on the old forum). So I hope he can offer some wisdom.

What I mostly want to know about, are the disadvantages. Because the advantages are very attractive: no crossover to color the sound, increased efficiency (because there is no crossover to suck power), and of course the point source experience. I would like to use the Audio Nirvana 15" (or maybe 12") fullrange driver, to provide both deep bass and "sense of scale". They don't measure very smooth above 1K Hz, but neither does my room. So what am I missing?
 

MatthewB

Grandmaster Pimp Daddy
Famous
Milpool your gonna have issues no matter what with that room you have. First off your great room is attached to that open dining area and from there that kitchen which wraps back around to the back of the great room. They you have that big ass bay window to deal with in the great room. I think your best bet in that room is to install an IB sub system with 15" drivers in all four corners of that great room, some major acoustical treatment and then some decent booksehelves that focus on great mid range and upper frequencies.

Your room (much like my ill designed great room) is going to be your biggest hurdle to overcome.

You can only do so much with full range towers, but your room has too many openings to make that much of a difference. Don't get me wrong what you had at your house was very good the last time I was there, but I think you will find using non powered woofers will only gain just a minimal increase in sound in that room.
 

milpool

Active Member
Matt,

No question, my room is a nightmare, and there is very little that can be done about that (within reason). But I came to terms with that long ago. I am not trying to use 15's to pressurize my open room with deep bass (not yet anyway ;) ).

I am simply looking to build better mains for my system. I expect whatever build, to provide better sound ABOVE the sub crossover (80Hz currently), not below. I could use the Audio Nirvana Super 8, and accomplish that. But their 15" fullrange driver should provide the realism (dynamics) that I am craving, without having to design and build a crossover network. (Something that I find a little daunting, and quite possibly, unnecessary.)
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
milpool said:
What I mostly want to know about, are the disadvantages. Because the advantages are very attractive: no crossover to color the sound, increased efficiency (because there is no crossover to suck power), and of course the point source experience. I would like to use the Audio Nirvana 15" (or maybe 12") fullrange driver, to provide both deep bass and "sense of scale". They don't measure very smooth above 1K Hz, but neither does my room. So what am I missing?
I'm sure Flint will chime in on this, but I wouldn't even for one second consider large full range speaker. Full range speakers have a small following, but they are by no means a mainstream alternative. The tradeoffs are simply too much; high frequency beaming, super-lightweight cone which is prone to breakup, low power handling because of the lightweight cone, etc.

I would go with an active crossover system which would yield the best of all worlds.
 

milpool

Active Member
Thanks SH,

Do you think their addition of a phase plug helps address the beaming issue? Of course, no company is going to point out it's deficiencies, but they are boasting a wide listening area. Actually, now that I think about it, they recommend listening slightly off axis. The beaming issue would explain why. Although, that may play right into my hands... I would prefer NOT to toe my mains inward. I currently do, because it sounds better that way, but it looks bad (IMO). They also recommend placing them closer to the wall. Again, that would match my preference aesthetically. And I whole-heartedly agree on the active crossover recommendation, but buying more amps and an active crossover are not in my budget. I know that none of this addresses the potential for cone break-up. Would you be willing to expound on that a little?
 

MatthewB

Grandmaster Pimp Daddy
Famous
Milpool I would just buy a pair of those SVS we got to demo at your house and sit em on a pair of PB10's or PB12's and use those as your mains and call it a day. If I recall those SVS sounded really sweet in your house with the one port plug blocked. They would easily get down to 80hz and then have the PB10 (or 12) take it from there. You would have "mains" that would sound tight and well controlled, have deeper bass than a stand alone speaker would and be able to acheive 20hz at 100db with music and movies. If I could do it all over again I would trade in my DT BP7001s and do it that way.

SVS MBS-02 are 899.00 a pair
SVS PB10 subs are 499.00 each

Total for "mains" 1900.00 would make a kick ass pair of full range "speakers".
 

milpool

Active Member
I agree Matt. That would be a very satisfying combo. And the price is acceptable for the performance. It's also easy.

Alas... I am after something different. I like the idea of building a DIY speaker, but not having to learn how to design crossovers. Kit speakers can solve that, but I'm not finding very many with large drivers. And I'd rather not plug in another sub (or 2). So this website http://www.commonsenseaudio.com seemed to address all of my desires (including a simple cabinet design). It works for me on so many levels. I'm just afraid that it might sound like crap. Which would explain why they are not very popular. Ugh...
 

Batman

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
Famous
Sounds like you have an itch to get involved in a project that will deliver some self satisfaction. Any other hobbies you enjoy in which you know you can do a diy project and have a good chance at stellar results? Maybe then you can go down that road of "the known" with your speaker conundrum without feeling like you missed out...

Lay back on the couch over here Milpool and get it off your chest....:happy-smileygiantred:
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
milpool said:
I like the idea of building a DIY speaker, but not having to learn how to design crossovers.
Actually, basic passive crossovers are extremely easy to "design". A basic two way 2 pole crossover consists of two inductors and two capacitors for each driver wired in a very, very simple circuit. The formulas and schematic diagrams are probably all over the web. Tweaking the basic circuit is also very easy. I wouldn't feel intimidated about constructing one since it is so easy to do.

This is a source I use when I need to do this kind of thing:

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
 

malsackj

Well-Known Member
I would be interested in seeing how a pair of horns mounted vertically would work in a room like yours. Using a good sub to carry the 20 hz to 100 hz. You would be hard pressed to find a 90 x 40 horn for 100 to 2 khz. and another 90 x 40 tweeter to cover the 2 k to 20 k. placing the 40 in the horizontal and the 90 in the vertical.

Running a 15 in the direct center and going up to 400 might be easier on finding the midrange horn.

would the narrow pattern on the horns help with better sound in the room and allow him to enjoy a better stage and scale.
 
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