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Why shouldn't I build a fullrange speaker?

There are clear advantages to fullrange speakers, the most obvious being the lack of a crossover and having two, or more, sound sources with all the comb filter issues and tonality issues to contend with. However, as SH so rightly pointed out, the size of the driver is directly related to the quality of the treble AND the bass. A small speaker with good treble will inherently lack bass performance. A large speaker with great bass will inherently lack treble performance. That fact absolutely cannot be avoided.

A phase plug does absolutely nothing for treble dispersion at all - nada, zip, zilch, cero, bupkus. However, a whizzer cone does help with treble performance because you are essentially making a dual cone driver with one large cone and one tiny cone (the whizzer). The tiny cone helps, but that sort of cone and its motion is fraught with other issues like sound wave reflections off the edge, breakup, and directionality at very high frequencies. In general, a whizzer cone gives the impression of good treble by generating noise at high frequencies which is in sync with the actual content - much like a ultra-harmonic generator (BBE Sonic Maximizer).

Personally, I would never build a fullrange with a driver larger than 5 inches, or so. Instead of a large speaker to get good bass, why not a small speaker to get good midrange and treble mated to a subwoofer for the bass where the mating process can be easy and appealing to listen to? That's what I would do.

I really like the Fostex fullrange speakers. Check one of those out, especially the Sigma series.

You still have beaming, though, which is easy to calculate. Take the effective cone diameter of the driver and determine what frequency has that same wavelength. At all frequencies starting at that frequency and higher, the sound will beam like a laser straight forward. That's physics. Then, for all frequencies below that frequency down to where the wavelength is 4x the diameter, the sound will slowly work to not beaming. Simple math. So, if the effective radiating cone diameter is 12", all sound above 1,128Hz will beam directly forward like a laser (unless there is some serious cone breakup, which is essentially THD). The beam pattern will slowly grow wider and wider at lower frequencies until reaching 282Hz where it is 100% omnidirectional (or hemispherical from the cone and the baffle size determines the full spherical pattern frequency).

I like fullrange speakers, but the best sounding don't play loud enough and those that play loud enough tend to sound poor.
 
By the way, my experience with fullrange systems has led me to believe in the brilliance of line arrays. Take 16x 3" fullrange drivers and put them in a vertical line array where the listener is positioned directly in the center (vertically) and you can get stunning results with no crossovers. Add a subwoofer for output below 70Hz, or so, and you are golden. Vertical line arrays beam on the vertical axis, darn near perfectly, while having a full horizontal dispersion you need for good stereo imaging and ambience.

Good stuff.
 
Flint said:
By the way, my experience with fullrange systems has led me to believe in the brilliance of line arrays. Take 16x 3" fullrange drivers and put them in a vertical line array where the listener is positioned directly in the center (vertically) and you can get stunning results with no crossovers. Add a subwoofer for output below 70Hz, or so, and you are golden. Vertical line arrays beam on the vertical axis, darn near perfectly, while having a full horizontal dispersion you need for good stereo imaging and ambience.

Good stuff.
L1m2B1T1.jpg

Bose (sorry) makes three such systems for live musicians. The sub they come with isn't enough for heavier music, but for a solo to trio they work very nice. The thing I noticed about them is the volume is very even throughout the venue, they don't seem any louder up close than they do halfway out in the room.
Way overpriced, and I'm surprised Behringer hasn't yet released a cheaper knockoff...
 
Botch said:
Flint said:
By the way, my experience with fullrange systems has led me to believe in the brilliance of line arrays. Take 16x 3" fullrange drivers and put them in a vertical line array where the listener is positioned directly in the center (vertically) and you can get stunning results with no crossovers. Add a subwoofer for output below 70Hz, or so, and you are golden. Vertical line arrays beam on the vertical axis, darn near perfectly, while having a full horizontal dispersion you need for good stereo imaging and ambience.

Good stuff.
L1m2B1T1.jpg

Bose (sorry) makes three such systems for live musicians. The sub they come with isn't enough for heavier music, but for a solo to trio they work very nice. The thing I noticed about them is the volume is very even throughout the venue, they don't seem any louder up close than they do halfway out in the room.
Way overpriced, and I'm surprised Behringer hasn't yet released a cheaper knockoff...

Those Bose systems are not really "line arrays" in a traditional sense. But they are great designs. They are very strict on getting court orders against anyone who copies their products, so you won't see a knock off anytime soon in the US.

That Bose product takes advantage of the acoustics of the room to make an acoustic musician louder in the room where the natural acoustics are maintained. They are great for folk singers and small bluegrass groups playing in coffee shops, lobbies, and small bars, but they suck for rock bands attempting to keep up with a drummer where you want to focus the sound on the audience and not the entire venue.
 
Flint said:
They are very strict on getting court orders against anyone who copies their products, so you won't see a knock off anytime soon in the US.
You ain't kiddin'. I was once told by someone-in-the-know that Bose has more attorneys than engineers and they have a lot of engineers.
 
Bose bases their entire market value on very creative engineering and ways of accomplishing seemingly simple things via unique means - that means they don't necessarily make the best, but they are effective and unique and thus have to protect their IP at all costs. I actually respect them for that even if I don't always agree with their product decisions.
 
Protecting their IP is one thing but filing a suit against someone who (unfavorably) critqued a product of theirs is insanely absurd.


Sorry for the hijack Milpool. I'll take my anti-Bose sentiments elsewhere. :text-imsorry:
 
Flint said:
Those Bose systems are not really "line arrays" in a traditional sense.
Really? I thought they were. Can you explain the difference?
 
Flint said:
Personally, I would never build a fullrange with a driver larger than 5 inches, or so. Instead of a large speaker to get good bass, why not a small speaker to get good midrange and treble mated to a subwoofer for the bass where the mating process can be easy and appealing to listen to? That's what I would do.

I like fullrange speakers, but the best sounding don't play loud enough and those that play loud enough tend to sound poor.

I guess I was hoping to build a pair of fullrange speakers that did not always require the use of a sub. Mostly because I hate my sub (Velodyne DPS10). And I really can't afford to replace it with anything better, right now.

As for the loudness, is their low Xmax the problem?

Thank you. I appreciate everyones input.
 
milpool said:
Flint said:
Personally, I would never build a fullrange with a driver larger than 5 inches, or so. Instead of a large speaker to get good bass, why not a small speaker to get good midrange and treble mated to a subwoofer for the bass where the mating process can be easy and appealing to listen to? That's what I would do.

I like fullrange speakers, but the best sounding don't play loud enough and those that play loud enough tend to sound poor.

I guess I was hoping to build a pair of fullrange speakers that did not always require the use of a sub. Mostly because I hate my sub (Velodyne DPS10). And I really can't afford to replace it with anything better, right now.

As for the loudness, is their low Xmax the problem?

Thank you. I appreciate everyones input.

It isn't any single parameter. Small speakers cannot move enough air - it is the total cone area and the x-max and the power handling and more. Plus, if you have any speaker generating enough energy at 60Hz to fill a room, you do NOT want that same speaker generating 15kHz at the same time. Soundhound can explain it much better than me, but doppler distortion is bad enough in a two way system where the woofer is corssed over at 2kHz - imagine a single small speaker attempting to generate 95dB SPL at 60Hz while at the same time cleanly reproducing the sizzle and gleam of a ride cymbal or harmonics of a piano. Sorry, it simply cannot be done.

That isn't to say you cannot enjoy a single speaker solution. You just have to accept all the compromised that come with such solutions.
 
This came from Altec's sound tests thread on the old forum:

On a woofer cone, doppler is produced when the cone must reproduce a low frequency at the same time it is reproducing a frequency higher up in the audio band nearer the crossover point. Since the higher frequency tone is "riding" on the woofer cone, and is moving nearer and farther from you at the frequency of the bass signal, the higher tone is temporairly raised then lowered in pitch at the frequency of the lower tone.

The solution to reducing doppler distortion to inaudibility is either to play the speakers at a low enough level, cross over your woofers at a higher frequency so that the woofers in the mains do not have to move as much in the bass, or get a speaker with a larger (or horn loaded woofer) which does not have to move as much in order to reproduce a practical amount of bass.



Makes a good case for some old Klipsch speakers.
 
milpool said:
This came from Altec's sound tests thread on the old forum:

On a woofer cone, doppler is produced when the cone must reproduce a low frequency at the same time it is reproducing a frequency higher up in the audio band nearer the crossover point. Since the higher frequency tone is "riding" on the woofer cone, and is moving nearer and farther from you at the frequency of the bass signal, the higher tone is temporairly raised then lowered in pitch at the frequency of the lower tone.

The solution to reducing doppler distortion to inaudibility is either to play the speakers at a low enough level, cross over your woofers at a higher frequency so that the woofers in the mains do not have to move as much in the bass, or get a speaker with a larger (or horn loaded woofer) which does not have to move as much in order to reproduce a practical amount of bass.



Makes a good case for some old Klipsch speakers.

Couldn't have said it better myself! :banana-rock:
 
Deerhunter said:
Hell yea! Chop chop!

Glad to see you have made your way over here!

Howdy neighbor! Nice to see you too man. Tell you what... I'll build 'em, if you buy 'em! :eek:bscene-drinkingcheers:
 
No problem I just planted a money tree on the porch. Its just about ready to harvest! :happy-smileygiantred:
 
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