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Audiophile type speakers: what is their sound?

TitaniumTroy

Well-Known Member
Rammis, mentioned in my JBL 4367 thread that my old speakers (Magnepan 3.6's) were audiophile type speakers and not as neutral as the 4367's. In regards to making recordings sound good but were not at as revealing as the JBL's. Which could make make a bad recording sound worse as it didn't gloss over flaws in the recording.

Would like to see this concept explained a little more in depth, as in types of speakers that do this. Also how is it achieved, be it voicing, how about specific brands that do this?
 
Speaking from my own experiences, "audiophile type" speakers are more forgiving of indiscretions in the mid range/treble, principally from around 500Hz upwards. This is most obvious to me with vocal recordings; most are recorded with excessive sibilance by virtue of the microphone being extremely close to the vocalist, the fact that almost all cardioid microphones have a boost in the 5kHz - 8kHz range, and compression and equalization added by the engineer (vocals are almost universally recorded with compression, otherwise the dynamics are too unmanageable).

A typical "audiophile" speaker will tend to gloss over this excessive sibilance, where a more neutral speaker will drill this sound through your head, unaltered; it will make the vocal sound exactly as it really is - recorded unnaturally close to the vocalist, with too much equalization and compression which emphasizes the fact that the microphone is too close.

I think that dispersion characteristics have something to do with this. Horns in particular will direct the sound right-straight at your ears, and if there are any nasties, you will know it in no uncertain terms. Some newer horn designs have wider dispersion which eases this effect. In my opinion, Klipsch gets this exactly wrong - they always have, and their newer designs are worse. Their horn speakers have way too much mid-range projection and are tuned to have an excessive high end, which makes the sibilance problem all that much worse.

There is a trend, mostly with "home theater" type speakers to have a rising high end, which I've bitched about here at length, although other speakers like B&W have this rising high end also. To me, it sounds just like what it actually is; a tweaked-up high end which emphasizes things in music which are not there in real life.

With classical music, another thing which differentiates "audiophile type" speakers from others is the reproduction of large violin sections. Again, the cause is mostly in the original recording session where the engineers placed the microphones too close to this section which overemphasizes harmonics which were never intended to be emphasized in real life. An "audiophile" speaker will be far more forgiving of this than a more honest one, which will reveal exactly what the problem is - microphones too close which is distorting the harmonic and non-harmonic balance of the sounds from the violins. In short, they will sound harsh and gritty on a more honest speaker if the original recording has that tendency.

Hopefully I've not rambled too much.....
 
Klipsch gets this exactly wrong - they always have, and their newer designs are worse. Their horn speakers have way too much mid-range projection and are tuned to have an excessive high end, which makes the sibilance problem all that much worse.

This is exactly why I don't like Klipsch speakers. They make my ears feel like they are going to bleed.
 
Yes but in a showroom they really stand out from the others. A marketing tool perhaps ?
I think its really that most general consumers don't know what a speaker should sound like; is the boom-sizzle sound which complements some types of popular music the "correct" sound? Should a speaker reproduce the sound of acoustic instruments accurately? Should a speaker make the sound of a movie soundtrack have maximum impact? All of these can be subjectively correct in the ear of the beholder, if the listener knows what sound they want in the first place. In the showroom, most general consumers will be impressed by the sound of a speaker such as a Klipsch, especially with a movie soundtrack.

Personally, that type of speaker impresses its sonic personality far too aggressively on the sound for my ears. In the beginning of HiFi, the ideal of speakers was that if you made a minimalist recording of an acoustic instrument and then played back that recording on a speaker, the sound of the instrument and the sound coming from the speaker would be indistinguishable. That was the goal, and that goal is still valid for speaker manufacturers and listeners who subscribe to the "classic" definition of HiFi.

In the 1950s and 1960s companies such as Acoustic Research and Wharfedale put on live verses recorded demonstrations in large concert halls where they played a recording of something like a string quartet behind those same instrumentalists either actually playing or pretending to play while the recording played. Most in the audience were completely unable to tell if the recording was playing or the actual performers were playing. I cannot fathom a Klipsch speaker being able to pass that test!!

It seems that especially with the advent of home theater, that classic definition has been thrown out the window, at least in the mass-market space. What is "good" is what impresses. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but I just prefer speakers which strive to get back to the basics of accurate reproduction of a live event.

There's always been speakers which have been wildly colored; Cerwin Vega is the classic example of the head banging speaker of the 70s, and they impressed many people. Cerwin Vega's weren't anywhere close to accurate though.
 
I agree with everything Rammis has written, 100%.

I knew Paul Klipsch personally. When I was a boy he and his wife would visit our home for dinner and would stay all evening talking and playing music - his wife played piano, as did my mom. My mom was one of the judges for the Klipsch piano scholarship at NMSU and my dad worked with the NMSU EE department (Paul's alma mater) to improve their work in producing qualified engineers for the work my dad did for the government during the cold war. It was a special time in my life, and very similar to the images of the 1950s and 1960s often portrayed humorously in movies and that artificially perfect world.

Anyway, his favorite listening test was to place a La Scala or Heresy under or near a grand piano and have his wife play or have a reel-to-reel recording of her playing reproduced over the speaker. He challenged anyone to hear the difference and he claimed no one ever could tell a difference. He always wanted to make the speakers now known as the Klipsch Heritage line sound perfect, and for him that was the ultimate test. But he also bemoaned the marketing department who influenced the crossover designs to reflect the trend at the moment for what a speaker should sound like to people spending that much on speakers. The company followed the "audiophile" sound through time and the hardcore fans all know which model of crossover sounds like each era. All of the crossovers are still available from Klipsch, for owners to get what they expect from their speakers.

While I was at Dell I worked closely with one of the top engineers at Bose when the Acoustimas system was introduced. When I knew him he was a CTO at Dell, but he loved to tell stories about the massive amount of research into listening preferences of home audio nuts and they developed a frequency response which fairly consistently created a sound that made nearly all recordings sound pleasing to listeners. It didn't need high output above 14kHz or deep bass below 80Hz. It had a dip in the midrange from about 2kHz to about 6kHz and a boost in the upper bass in the 120Hz to 250Hz range which, when all done properly, made just about any recording pleasant to listen to. Personally, I found it made everything sound the same, lacked detail (which has little to do with the response and more to do with the single cheap-ass 3" full-range driver and shitty semi-sub-woofers and extreme phase response problems below 300Hz). Their target response was like listening to the classic "Flying-V" graphic EQ curve, but with an extremely low cost speaker system. I still swear that everyone I know who ever purchased an Acoustimas system got bored with it after a few months and soon stopped listening to it at all, except on special "movie nights" and cocktail parties.

My experience with "Audiophile" speakers from the 1990s and 2000s is wrought with good attempts at great sound often killed with stupid crossover voicing decisions. A smart engineer with no ear for music would design a speaker which solved an often under-looked issue in performance, such as time alignment, baffle step reinforcement, or baffle edge sourced echos, but then made stupid decisions with crossovers or driver selection.

I once demoed a famous speaker which claimed to have a natural sound because the frequency response was measured to be flat in the listening space. Well, the response was actually flat, but the overall levels of the woofer, midrange and tweeter were relative level, but the crossover areas were insanely bad from poor design and the tweeter had a natural resonance at 15kHz from the metal dome breaking up. The speaker sounded very harsh and had serious issues, but the marketing suggested that's what good speakers sound like. It was sad.

Audiophile speakers with that infamous British sound had a clear dip in the 3.5kHz range as prescribed by the BBC to address a very real issue with using speakers above a large mixing console and introducing a reflection off the console often causing a boost in the response around 3.5kHz. Well, many people liked the sound of the studio monitors designed for that applications with the dip in the response and assumed that meant more accurate sound. Audiophile speaker designers would exaggerate the dip, sometimes to the tune of wide dip centered at 3.5kHz which was more than 6dB below the average response. This reduced the levels of the most important content to human hearing and identification of sounds so the brain was forced to fill in the missing information by interpolating from the harmonics above that range, leading to a perception that the listener was "hearing" detail they never heard before. When the main way to know an acoustic guitar is a guitar is based solely on the harmonics above 6kHz, that can be very sexy initially, but it leads to mental exhaustion and ultimately listening fatigue. Those speakers also tended to have a strong boost in the upper treble, somewhere between 14khz and 20kHz.

In the 1980s Dr. Floyd Toole introduced the well-researched "Canadian" sound with the Energy-8 concept speaker which later was used as the starting point of the Energy speaker company and similar sounding speakers using that research started up, such as Paradigm and others. That sound quality was based on a smooth response, consistent propagation (dispersion) and an in-room response which sloped down from about 600Hz to 20,000Hz. For a period that sound was taking the world by storm, but competition in the store taught everyone that in listening sessions the speaker with the most desirable treble boost and bass thump (usually in the 100Hz range) was preferred at that moment. Much like the "retina burning setting" on TVs to sell in the TV store, a speaker with a thumping, but not boomy, bass and crispy, detailed treble almost always won out in side-by-side comparisons in the stores' listening rooms. So dutiful marketing departments and acquiescent engineers delivered. The trick was to please the comparison shoppers while still delivering great sound. that's how we got here.

During this time the audiophile speakers got more and more gimmicky - selling on technical concepts which sound right, but don't necessarily work in practice - like "infinite slope" crossovers, or the opposite goal of the "single pole" crossovers. People started developing magic tricks which often had nothing to do with the performance of the speaker, such as milling the flared ports of a bass cabinet out of 20 pound chunks of aluminum, or using a layered sandwich of MDF, sand, and MDF to somehow create a 3/4" panel for enclosures. Some of the gimmicky stuff actually make a difference, but in a large number of instances it is just nonsense.

I once auditioned a high end speaker from a well-established company where it was blatantly obvious that the tweeter was about 4dB to 6 dB too loud. When a reviewer asked the guy running the demo about it, he got a snotty answer. Later it was announced that the demo had the wrong prototype crossover and in future production units that issue wouldn't exist.

I totally understand the concept of using a different speaker to get a sound quality one likes to hear. That's fine. But, the concept of attempting to recreate a real accurate reproduction of a real recorded event is what most very serious music listening aficionados, like many of us on this forum, is what makes this a great hobby. If one wants to boost the treble, fine - just don't tell us it is accurate when we complain about it.

The problem with a great accurate speaker, as Rammis points out, is that alongside blowing us away with accurate reproduction, we also have to hear all the flaws of a bad recording. I will never forget Bryan's face when just after a serious listening session of a pair of Dynaudio C1s using my reference discs, he put on his beloved Radiohead CD and it fell very, very flat. Relative to the very clean and dynamic recordings we had been auditioning, Radiohead lacked any dynamics and the treble and bass had no real extension. He was so sad. But I say, so what. If the music moves you, it doesn't have to have the same perfect recording as something else which may sound fun, but doesn't give you life.
 
Sammie,
My father purchased his AR turntable after going to one of those "live vs Recorded" demonstrations in Philly in the late 60's. Think part of the show was how the AR would still track while playing on it's side...lol
 
I think the obvious question after reading those excellent and in-depth responses is, "What are the options out there today for non-gimmicky, accurate speakers?" Speakers are a huge investment. I spent five grand 16 years ago and expect that my speakers will still sound good ten years from now. That's a long time to live with a set of speakers.
 
"What are the options out there today for non-gimmicky, accurate speakers?"

Going to brands which are known to be more accurate (like Dynaudio and others) based on their reputation and in-depth listening. If you're looking for a really accurate speaker to the sound of acoustic instruments, I would not initially audition with anything heavily processed and compressed. Having sorted out the finalists with acoustic types of music, if you listen to heavily processed music I would check that this type of music also sounds OK through your final choice, i.e. the speaker can convey the punch needed since some speakers which are overly polite can't accomplish that (electrostatics at any reasonable SPL for instance). It is easier for a neutral sounding speaker to sound OK with processed music than a speaker which only sounds good with processed music to sound acceptable with acoustic music.

For home theater, you need to sort out whether you will expect them to also shine with music you listen to. I have found though that it is more difficult to find a speaker which sounds great with movie soundtracks which can also sound good with acoustic music (at least if you expect the reproduction to be really accurate).
 
It's also important to be honest with yourself. I for one am not a fan of a dead flat response. With the type of music I enjoy I like a little bump in around the 60hz region a bit of a bump in the midrange 250-500, give or take and a rolled off high freq.
I find this to work best with rock recordings as well as poorly recorded material, for me. If any of you remember I was the only one at Franklin's get together who didn't care for the Mackies. I arreciated them but they weren't for me.
 
Most of us love Dynaudio.

I agree that Dynaudio makes amazing speakers, are the go-to for many here and are probably what I would want for an upgrade if I could afford it. I'm thinking more of other brands, perhaps some of the online-only or off the beaten path options. This is entirely for discussion sake. I personally won't be buying any speakers until after I buy a house and will likely build a home theater room before that.
 
This is a thread about audiophile speakers, suggesting much pricier products.
 
What is pricey? Should we also assume that a well balanced, neutral sounding speaker has to be very expensive? The characteristics described have as much to do with design intent as the cost of the materials. Is there any reason to expect that a speaker has to cost $5000+ to produce the kind of sound discussed here?

A secondary comment is that there are actually quite a few rising contenders that are starting to produce more expensive offerings as time goes by. There are also quite a few brands that have been around a long time that are less well-known than Dynaudio. Harbeth comes to mind, although I think they have some of the characteristics of the B&W speakers discussed earlier.

As I said, I'm not shopping. I'm just trying to get past the academics to some real-world examples that extend beyond one obvious go-to brand.
 
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I don't know if they qualify as "Audiophile" type speakers, but Zu Audio definitely has some far from accurate speakers. I have heard them briefly a couple of times, but not with my own music. So I can't really comment on their sound. Their marketing dept. and fans say their about "live music", lots of dynamics with low powered tube amps seem to sum it up.

They have some of the worst frequency responses charts, I have ever seen.

Heard some Tannoy towers at a show, the demo guy played some obscure Queen song that had a lot of screechy guitar in it. It was so bad it cleared out the room of 5 guys, except me, then he wonders out loud who would have thought a Queen song could do that. The next Queen song sounded okay but it was a standard classic rock hit.

Also for some reason at audio shows manf. of horn speakers love to crank music with lots high frequency content. Like trumpets and clarinets etc... talk about making your ears bleed.
 
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This is why I asked the question I asked, which amounts to, "Are there any mainstream speakers left on the market that actually sound good from the perspective of producing accurate sound?" This question is largely driven by my own shitty experiences auditioning speakers at various places over the last five years. Let's define mainstream as around $2,000 for a stereo pair.
 
Also for some reason at audio shows manf. of horn speakers love to crank music with lots high frequency content. Like trumpets and clarinets etc... talk about making your ears bleed.

That shows that the general mass public doesn't know what it is they should be listening for. Manufacturers are really the guilty party here in not educating them.
 
This is why I asked the question I asked, which amounts to, "Are there any mainstream speakers left on the market that actually sound good from the perspective of producing accurate sound?" This question is largely driven by my own shitty experiences auditioning speakers at various places over the last five years. Let's define mainstream as around $2,000 for a stereo pair.
One brand which I think sounds reasonable for a reasonable price is ELAC, but even they have a bit of a tipped-up high end.
 
What is pricey? Should we also assume that a well balanced, neutral sounding speaker has to be very expensive? The characteristics described have as much to do with design intent as the cost of the materials. Is there any reason to expect that a speaker has to cost $5000+ to produce the kind of sound discussed here?

A secondary comment is that there are actually quite a few rising contenders that are starting to produce more expensive offerings as time goes by. There are also quite a few brands that have been around a long time that are less well-known than Dynaudio. Harbeth comes to mind, although I think they have some of the characteristics of the B&W speakers discussed earlier.

As I said, I'm not shopping. I'm just trying to get past the academics to some real-world examples that extend beyond one obvious go-to brand.

Okay.. I am being pedantic here... I believe our use of the term "Audiophile quality" is meant more as an insult to a product than a compliment. We didn't say "high-end" or "top-quality" which are the go-to terms on this forum for the better products on the market. Our descriptions of why "Audiophile Sounding" speakers were mostly, if not all, negative to make a point about the struggles of trying to find a top of the line speaker which actually sounds good because most of those praised brands are more about gimmicks and targeting a non-accurate sound signature which the listener finds pleasing rather realistic.

It appears the question is now, how can I find a good accurate sounding speaker? Well, comparing with "audiophile style" speakers - I assume that means REALLY EXPENSIVE, and there are plenty of good ones out there. The JBL M2, which was the model that started this thread, is a good choice. As are some amazing speakers from Focal, Dynaudio, and others.

If the question is more about how to find a good sounding speaker in an affordable range - well that list is pretty darn long. Surprisingly, speaker designers have gotten better and better at making very decent sounding speakers in the mainstream price points. The works of people like Dr. Toole and other members of AES who research the psychology of preferences in sound quality have moved us very far forward and modern speakers generally sound way better than they did a few decades ago. We all love Paradigm, Energy, Definitive Tech, Polk, Infinity, and others. They all need to do something to stand apart from the rest, so few are perfect, but in general today's models are vastly superior to their ancestors. If you truly want an affordable version of near perfection the best answer is a studio monitor. You can get pro-grade self-powered studio monitors for $2,000 which are pretty damn amazing. In that price range they offer sufficient output levels and a plethora of fine-tuning controls for EQ and room acoustics. Genelec, Dynaudio, Focal, Neumann, Adam, JBL, and others are all pretty great once setup properly. Since they are self-powered, you could increase your budget by the cost of a good amplifier since that isn't needed anymore.

This is a huge field, and while there is still quite a bit of shit on the market, most of it is better than it was years ago. Also, because we've been at this as a serious hobby for so long, our ability to hear fine details and issues is greater than it was when we started this fun, so we think modern speakers suck when in fact they are much better these days - we are just more picky. Go out and find a 20 year old pair popular speakers and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Those are my views.
 
What's sad is that for home speakers even my favorite brands have introduced the spike in the 15-18kHz range because, clearly, it sells speakers. There are ways to reduce that with EQ or how you aim the speaker, but that shouldn't be necessary.
 
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