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I have decided I don't need surround sound, ever

Just curious, could list you list the cost of the individual drivers? Woofer, midrange, and tweeter? Also how about a link to the various manufacturer's websites so we can read about the individual drivers themselves?
 
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Just curious, could list you list the cost of the individual drivers? Woofer, midrange, and tweeter? Also how about a link to the various manufacturer's websites so we can read about the individual drivers themselves?

I won't list the prices I paid, but they came from Madisound if one wants to see the retail prices. I will get into more detail in a build thread.
 
Ok and how about the new digital amp designs ? These are using switching power supplies.
I am removing some of the RFI on cables to help with wireless use around these amps.

Ferrite chokes on the power cords, speaker wires, and the signal lines.

would the same also be true for the DSP processing.
 
TO share more data on my drivers, the midrange driver I am using produces less than 0.1% 3rd harmonic distortion in the operating range when generating 94dB SPL at 1M. I have two drivers per signal channel and thus for the same SPL in my room the 3rd harmonic level is more likely below 0.05%. The 2rd harmonic at the same levels is higher, mostly below 0.5%, but peaking at 0.8% in the 800Hz to 2,000Hz range while producing 94dB SPL at 1M. That can cut in half for the same SPLs in my dual driver design.

Compare that to another top end midrange driver, such as the Eton 4-512 model, the same 94dB SPL results in an average of about 3.5% 2rd harmonic distortion and 1.3% for the 3rd harmonic in the same range. Or, we can compare to the amazing Scan-Speak Revelator 6.5" Midrange (used in some the highest end speaker systems in the world) which at the same SPL produces about 0.8% 2rd Harmonic distortion and 0.2% 3rd harmonic distortion.

Basically, the odd order THD of these amazing ellipticor midrange drivers is 4x lower than one of the best drivers on the market previously, and the 2rd order harmonic THD is almost half that of the best previous model on the market.

Good stuff! Those improvements in the new drivers are fascinating considering we're talking about physical cones that are moving back and forth, quite the engineering feat.
 
Holy flying insects, Batman!!!

I was watching my new binge show, Bordertown, on Netflix in my main listening room and in Season 2, Episode 2, at the 38 minute mark, they cut to a scene where the camera is moving over the field of some sort of grass crop with a car driving up on the road in the distance. In that 2 second clip, there are some bees or flies buzzing around the mics, and in my room it was as if there were bees flying around and behind my head with absolutely realism. Like, for a split-second I thought a bee was in the room. I've replayed that short transition shot about 50 times, and it is amazing!!!!

Check it out and see if you experience bees flying around your head, like real bees in the room buzzing within inches to a few feet from your head, mostly to the side and behind you.

Netflix
Bordertown
Season 2
Episode 2
38:07 - 38:11

This is AMAZING!!!!!

Screw surround speakers!!! I never experienced this with my super high end perfectly matched surround speakers. Not once.
 
Holy flying insects, Batman!!!

I was watching my new binge show, Bordertown, on Netflix in my main listening room and in Season 2, Episode 2, at the 38 minute mark, they cut to a scene where the camera is moving over the field of some sort of grass crop with a car driving up on the road in the distance. In that 2 second clip, there are some bees or flies buzzing around the mics, and in my room it was as if there were bees flying around and behind my head with absolutely realism. Like, for a split-second I thought a bee was in the room. I've replayed that short transition shot about 50 times, and it is amazing!!!!

Check it out and see if you experience bees flying around your head, like real bees in the room buzzing within inches to a few feet from your head, mostly to the side and behind you.

Netflix
Bordertown
Season 2
Episode 2
38:07 - 38:11

This is AMAZING!!!!!

Screw surround speakers!!! I never experienced this with my super high end perfectly matched surround speakers. Not once.


Hot DAMN!!!! I had stopped and replayed just that transition over and over, and it turns out the entire scene is filled with flies flying around even as the lead character is speaking.
 
HA! Funny, man. Funny.

No, I wasn't drinking last night. I am fighting a cold or mild flu, or something, so I am not drinking.

I am just blown away when a surround effect appears so realistic. I realized last night that I never experienced these pinpoint virtual ambient imaging when I had that ultra-expensive and perfectly tuned 7.1 system. While the 7.1 system was amazing at creating far-field ambience, like a crowd behind me in a concert video, or the distant sound of a helicopter flying around overhead, it never created the effect of pinpoint small sounds which are inches to feet away from my head. It also never came close to creating the front soundstage where dialog or ambient sounds are positions off of center.

My new stereo system doesn't do all that well with the large ambient sounds, like the sense of being in a huge audience or walking through a massive cavern or airplane hangar. But it does create the pinpoint effects like I have written about above
 
Do you think that might have something to do with the other speakers "muddying up" the imaging? Or just better speakers? or both?
 
Do you think that might have something to do with the other speakers "muddying up" the imaging? Or just better speakers? or both?

I think the impact of stereo done right is incredible, but it is an illusion from two speakers. In a great room with great speakers, the illusion can be incredible.

With 5 to 7 to 14 speakers, the imaging tricks of two is devolved to specific speaker placements, not from the illusion of stereo imaging. In other words, when a speaker is to the side, it is always to the side and getting an illusion of a sound between the side and the front is nearly impossible because stereo imaging is about two frequencies in front of you.

So, with good down-conversion of 7.1 to 2,0, the illusion could be amazing.
 
Once again, completely blown away with the side and rear effects from a TV show over my basic 2 channel system. I was binge watching the newest season of "Absentia" on Amazon Prime and there are not shortage of scenes where very distinct side and rear sounds were pristine and absolutely perfectly recreated over a simple 2 channel speaker system.

I truly feel that for an individual viewer in the "sweet spot" only two speakers are necessary to create the fully-encompassing, full spatial environment experience the director intends for us.

What I am looking for now are TVs with ATMOS support which down-mix from 7.1.5 to stereo.
 
What I am looking for now are TVs with ATMOS support which down-mix from 7.1.5 to stereo.

you can try netflix stuff, they have a number of atmos tracks available.

altered carbon comes to mind, triple frontier and several newer movies.

i have to admit, i dont the the perfect room, nor acoustics at ALL to support a decent let alone perfect 2.0 setup. but ive remembered having the same effect back when i had my klipsch setup, and practically didnt feel i 'needed' my center speaker because i toed em in to a sweetspot.
 
you can try netflix stuff, they have a number of atmos tracks available.

altered carbon comes to mind, triple frontier and several newer movies.

I need a TV which will do the downmixing from ATMOS to stereo to see how that works.
 
I need a TV which will do the downmixing from ATMOS to stereo to see how that works.

ah i see.

ive been looking at tvs right now too, and see that hisense is making some waves due to affordability and their 'new' technology that somewhat is close to OLED's.

google Hisense H8F, with a 65 4k tv at 700 bucks.

 
I know that your room and your speakers are both like wicked uber-high end. For the general Joe Schmoe, do you think they'd get as good of a "surround" effect with a 2.1 system?
 
I know that your room and your speakers are both like wicked uber-high end. For the general Joe Schmoe, do you think they'd get as good of a "surround" effect with a 2.1 system?

I don't know what it would take, but if the acoustics are good, the speakers have good midrange accuracy, and the imaging is as it should be (a result of good midrange and good acoustics), then I think so.

My secondary system consists of a small pair of bookshelf speakers in a far less ideal room. I do have good placement and listening position. When I pay attention, I get a solid "virtual" center channel and some of the surround effect I talk about with my high end room/system. However, I don't generally watch shows with a critical ear on that system, so I cannot make a perfect comparison. Perhaps if I played the same content and paid very close attention I would discover a similar effect.

But my point is that people go to huge lengths to get the expensive gear and 10 speakers crammed into their room to have a serious surround sound experience with the intention of making movies more enjoyable to watch, right? With that much effort going into the "buy more and more and more until I am impressed by the results" approach, one could just buy less and better speakers and gear and put similar effort into getting good sound from two speakers rather than finding a way to cram a dozen speakers into a room in relatively good locations.

So, your question doesn't reflect a apples to apples comparison of someone with a 7.2.5 system with all the electronics and energy and time it takes to make it work well versus someone with a pair of high cost speakers placed as perfectly as possible and as little gear as necessary to make them sound their best. Neither of those people are the proverbial "Joe Schmoe" who doesn't know what they are doing. If one is going to spend $4,000 on the audio portion of their system to get the best experience, I am arguing that a great pair of high end speakers and a good amp are a better choice than a complicated receiver, two subs, and 12 speakers scattered all over the room.

But, as I mentioned when I started this thread, it is less about the surround sound "effect" that drove me to abandon surround sound. It is much more about how I enjoy video content and the realization that a dozen surround channels doesn't make a good show with great story-telling, acting, and even action much better and it can actually distract from the things which make shows the most enjoyable.
 
This is all predicated on the model of a single person sitting in the ideal position, so it is not a going to provide the same kind of experience for a group of people sitting together in a room.
 
This is all predicated on the model of a single person sitting in the ideal position, so it is not a going to provide the same kind of experience for a group of people sitting together in a room.

I would argue that no hone surround solution can deliver the same experience to everyone in a room, and a system which comes close to offering that will not offer anything close to an ideal experience to anyone.
 
I would argue that no hone surround solution can deliver the same experience to everyone in a room, and a system which comes close to offering that will not offer anything close to an ideal experience to anyone.

I don't think I framed my thoughts very clearly. It amounts to this.

Imagine a room with a nice big sofa out in the middle of a room. If you have an ideal set of stereo speakers, the person sitting in the middle will get that amazing enveloping sound Franklin describes with nothing more than that. If that same person moves off-axis, the entire illusion disappears and he is left with a very nice sounding front soundstage. If he is not too far off axis, he may still get some imaging. A person on one end of the couch may hear all of the dialog in a movie coming from the closest speaker.

Imagine the same room with a traditional 5.1 setup. The person in the sweet spot will still get the best sound. The difference is that the people who are sitting off-axis will still get the benefit of enveloping sound, thanks to the speakers behind them. They will also benefit from the existence of the center channel, which anchors dialog in the middle, even when you are sitting way off axis.

That is all I'm getting at. The laws of physics preclude the existence of a system that will sound equally good all over a room.
 
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