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NAD AV Receivers

Well!

After further reading of NAD's materials and independent reviews about the T 758, I caught that the rear 7.1 channels/remote speaker channels, if not used for 7.1 or a separate room, could be combined with the main L/R speakers for bi-amp duty.

Wait. Wat??

My Yamaha is a 7.1 receiver, could I chain the main L/R channels with the Rear Surround Channels, and go the bi-amp route too? (I don't have a 7.1 setup, just 5.1) I dug out the manual, and, yes, I can do the same thing! :banana-dance: I think. :shhh:
The manual showed how to program the receiver to do so (no problem) and then to run a separate set of cables from the (I'll call them) the 6/7 channel outputs, to the second set of inputs on my main L/R speakers.
I recall reading about bi-amping awhile back, and it didn't sound like the receiver divided the two signals into high-frequency and low-frequency duties, they were identical signals and just summed at the speaker (so why run two sets of cable??). The Yamaha manual doesn't say which output (L/R, or 6/7) is the high-freq or lo-freq, which reinforced that idea. However, I looked on the back of my Monitor Audios and there were two sets of inputs, marked "HF" and "LF". I remember the owners manual telling me to use the "HF" inputs for a single cable, think the manual is now packed away in the box downstairs. Hmm. Gotta do some more research.
However, I'm excited that there may be two unused amp sections in my current receiver that will fix my problem without any new purchases! :handgestures-thumbup: :handgestures-thumbup: :handgestures-thumbup: Some of you mentioned I have "upgrade-itis", and yeah a new receiver would be cool, but I tend to buy the best things I can afford and then hope they last as long as possible; Every vehicle I've owned got between 110,000 and 240,000 miles before replacing, and most of those had to be replaced because they were destroyed in some manner. I got 8 years out of my first computer, 8 years out of my second, and going-on 7 on my current one. My current cellphone is circa 2007 (I don't have a smartphone) and I got 30 years out of my first stereo; would love to have my current setup last two weeks longer than I do. :pray: :D
 
Good plan Botch. In addition I would encourage you to see if you can borrow a power amp to try out that route as well to see if you can tell a difference. I just sold a couple amps I had but if I end up with an extra one anytime soon I can ship one out to you so can give that option a try too. Keep an eye on your local craigslist. With used amps you can often sell them for the same price you invest so it might be a fun little project for you to try. I enjoy the pursuit of finding good used deals and seeing if they improve my system. My $0.02.
 
Long time NAD fan here, started with a conservative rated 50wpc integrated in the 80's. Due to excellent reviews by the stereo rags of the day. Back in 2001 I bought a $1,000, 70wpc receiver, which lasted me ten years. When I moved from a small apartment to my duplex, it did not have the power to handle my Magnepan's in the larger room. Hence a blown ribbon tweeter.

Upgraded the power to a NAD 218THX, 225wpc amp, via an Intergra pre-pro, problem solved. A Parasound
Zamp 60wpc at 4 ohms that I purchased from Orbison powers the surrounds. I have two NAD 218THXs sitting around not being used if you should want to go the separate route.

Currently NAD is moving more towards the digital type amps, backed up by additional stiff power supplies or something like that. I really like the look of their Master Series of products,but kinda pricey, They do try to future proof some of their products with modular construction and circuit boards that can be swapped out.
 
AndySTL said:
Good plan Botch. In addition I would encourage you to see if you can borrow a power amp to try out that route as well to see if you can tell a difference. I just sold a couple amps I had but if I end up with an extra one anytime soon I can ship one out to you so can give that option a try too.
Click to expand...

You just made me have another "duh" moment; my 34-year old Yamaha CA-810 is sitting the basement, right now, and it has preamp-outs/amp-ins! :doh: If it solves the problem, I'd probably still buy a separate stereo power amp to use, to keep everything black, and allow it to be turned on by my Harmony One (my 810 has a kickstarter on the side, nothing else) :mrgreen:
 
TitaniumTroy said:
Long time NAD fan here, started with a conservative rated 50wpc integrated in the 80's. Due to excellent reviews by the stereo rags of the day. Back in 2001 I bought a $1,000, 70wpc receiver, which lasted me ten years. When I moved from a small apartment to my duplex, it did not have the power to handle my Magnepan's in the larger room. Hence a blown ribbon tweeter.

Upgraded the power to a NAD 218THX, 225wpc amp, via an Intergra pre-pro, problem solved. A Parasound
Zamp 60wpc at 4 ohms that I purchased from Orbison powers the surrounds. I have two NAD 218THXs sitting around not being used if you should want to go the separate route.

Currently NAD is moving more towards the digital type amps, backed up by additional stiff power supplies or something like that. I really like the look of their Master Series of products,but kinda pricey, They do try to future proof some of their products with modular construction and circuit boards that can be swapped out.
Click to expand...

Ah, thank you Troy!! :music-rockout: After experimenting with my old yamaha stereo amp, I may take you up on one of the 218's.

Regarding the modular construction/swap-out boards, I've seen this design concept a few times before, and with one exception, newer boards/modules never came out; there just isn't enough profit by going that route (the single exception was a music synthesizer keyboard that Peavey released; they did release one, just one, upgrade board for that synth, but then it sank from sight.)
 
I'm there. :angelic-green:

I haven't found an answer to my question yet of whether bi-amping the Yammie splits the signal into LF and HF sends yet. As soon as I do I'll solder up some cable couplers and give it a try. I'm kinda slow on these things sometimes... :shifty:
 
On the old forum Flint had a GREAT article on bi-amping and when, and more importantly - when it's NOT, beneficial. The bottom line: if you're bi-amping by simply coupling two amp channels, you're just using extra wire to no real benefit.

The idea of using your old receiver as just an amp is the best I've seen in this thread so far.

John
 
If the Power Supply in the Yamaha receiver is weak (does not have headroom), then this solution will not help him either.

I wished I lived closer Botch, I would be there in a heart beat with one of my amps.......

:music-rockout:
 
heeman said:
If the Power Supply in the Yamaha receiver is weak (does not have headroom), then this solution will not help him either.
Click to expand...

Just for clarity, I believe you're talking about the passive bi-amping solution, correct?

John
 
Yes, passive bi-amp. However I think what Botches' speakers are missing is an amplifier with the ability to drive them with enough headroom (dynamic response) at higher listening levels. This is most likely due to the power supply in his Yamaha AVR.

It's my opinion that a good solid Stereo Amp to drive his Front Right and Left Speakers will solve his problem without bi-amping.
 
I think it is an acoustics problem and has nothing to do with the amp at all.
 
Flint, have you still got the materials (diagrams, etc.) you used to make the post I referred to? That would be a good addition to this forum.

John
 
Botch said:
The manual showed how to program the receiver to do so (no problem) and then to run a separate set of cables from the (I'll call them) the 6/7 channel outputs, to the second set of inputs on my main L/R speakers.
I recall reading about bi-amping awhile back, and it didn't sound like the receiver divided the two signals into high-frequency and low-frequency duties, they were identical signals and just summed at the speaker (so why run two sets of cable??). The Yamaha manual doesn't say which output (L/R, or 6/7) is the high-freq or lo-freq, which reinforced that idea.
Click to expand...

This, was a mistake on my part. I went to my audio dealer this afternoon to pick up some banana plugs, and after some discussion it sounds like ALL amps, when set up for bi-amping, send HF down one set of cables and LF down another (that's why two sets are required). In fact, he said if I'd connected the 6/7 and L/R outputs together, I'da probably fried my amp! :scared-eek: ). In my defense, I rechecked my manual and it doesn't say that the L/R should be hooked up to the HF posts on my speakers, and the 6/7 to the LF posts (I assume that's how it should be set up, the manual doesn't say).
Jay also discussed that, if the power supply in the receiver isn't up to snuff, bi-amping won't do me any good, as several of you have mentioned too.
Think I'm going to run to Radio Shack and pick up some banana plugs, and just run wires across the floor and try the Yammie in bi-amp mode. If that solves the problem, I'll have Jay's installation guys pull a couple more speaker cables through the wall for me. If that doesn't solve the problem, then I'll try my 35-year old amp and see what that does. If it does fix the issue, then Troy I may take you up on your NAD offer; do they respond to IR on/off? (my old Yammie doesn't have a remote, which is why it wouldn't be my "permanent" solution).

But, there's another possible solution....

Jay told me he's getting the new Marantz receivers in in a couple weeks, and he could sell me his demo SR-7008, $500 off, 125w/ch. I'm thinking at this point the stereo amp route is probably the better way to go, however.
 
:doh:

While en-route to Radio Shack, I realized I had no idea if I have any extra speaker wire laying around, figured I better pick up a roll of that too.

Two blocks later, I realized I still had my speaker cables from playing in bands, they'd be fine; so, no wire. :handgestures-thumbup:

One block later, I turned around to head back home, cuz I then remembered those speaker cables already had banana plugs on both ends. d'Oh!

And now, having pulled out my rack, and speakers, I see that the posts were multi-connection, I didn't need banana plugs at all (for temporary, anyway)...

:doh:
 
Botch said:
Botch said:
...I went to my audio dealer this afternoon to pick up some banana plugs, and after some discussion it sounds like ALL amps, when set up for bi-amping, send HF down one set of cables and LF down another (that's why two sets are required)...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Not exactly. Both amps output full range signals. The cross-overs in the speakers are what filter the signals. In the thread that Flint posted, notice that each driver (or driver set) has its own cross-over. These cross-overs allow a certain frequency range to pass through to the driver while essentially "wasting" the other frequencies, ultimately as heat.

The fact that both amps are doing practically the same amount of work in the passive bi-amp arrangement is one of the primary reasons there is no real benefit to this arrangement. In an active cross-over arrangement, each amp is only working with a portion of the audio range. A typical powered sub is an example of an actively crossed-over system. The cross-over is in front of the sub's amp (usually in the receiver) and therefore the sub's amp only "sees" frequency below the cross-over. (Remember that cross-overs operate with a linear response expressed in dB/octave, such as 24dB per octave, so they're not "brick walls".)

John
 
What ever happened on this Botch? Did you get the Yamaha working to your liking? I am actually picking up one of these RX-V765s up today off craigslist. Curious to hear your thoughts.
 
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