• Welcome to The Audio Annex! If you have any trouble logging in or signing up, please contact 'admin - at - theaudioannex.com'. Enjoy!
  • HTTPS (secure web browser connection) has been enabled - just add "https://" to the start of the URL in your address bar, e.g. "https://theaudioannex.com/forum/"
  • Congratulations! If you're seeing this notice, it means you're connected to the new server. Go ahead and post as usual, enjoy!
  • I've just upgraded the forum software to Xenforo 2.0. Please let me know if you have any problems with it. I'm still working on installing styles... coming soon.

Preamp/Processors Available???

heeman

Well-Known Member
Famous
Are there any reasonably priced products out there?

If companies like Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, etc; can provide AV Receivers that are resonably priced, how come there are no resonably priced Preamp/Processors available??
 

Rope

Well-Known Member
Famous
What is your interpretation of reasonable, and would you consider purchasing used?

Rope
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
Manufacturers make what will sell the most, being in business to make the most money possible. Apparently they believe that more people want receivers than preamp/processors. Also, some receivers have preamp outputs which serve the same purpose.
 

heeman

Well-Known Member
Famous
Rope said:
What is your interpretation of reasonable, and would you consider purchasing used?

Rope


Hey Rope,

Here is the deal, it s 7.2 receiver cost between $600 and $900 depending on brand as a fairly entry level model with decent power, then why can't a Pre/Pro cost between $450 and $700???

Why are most of them $1500 +++ ?

Used is fine if it has the most up to date technology.
 

heeman

Well-Known Member
Famous
soundhound said:
Also, some receivers have preamp outputs which serve the same purpose.

That is the main reason I am looking at buying the Onkyo TX NR708 because it is the lowest Model in that brand that actually have 7.2 Pre-outs, so that I can use my Power Amp for my Fronts, however I would love to purchase a couple of other Power amps for the rest of the system, because the sound will be much better than using the onboard amps in the receiver.

Hence, just by a Preamp/Processor..........but the costs are huge.
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
You know what Heeman, I'm coming dangerously close to buying a Denon receiver - almost exclusively for its processing and features - and selling my Integra 9.8. Perhaps we could arrange something mutually benefical.
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
soundhound said:
Also, some receivers have preamp outputs which serve the same purpose.
I seem to recall a post from nelmr where he mentioned the voltage at the preamp outs on a receiver was lower than it is on a dedicated pre/pro. I'll be damned if I can find it now. Can someone point me to it or address this issue here?

Is that true? Is that one of the benefits to using an actual pre/pro over a receiver with preamp outs?
 

Flint

Dog Faced Pony Soldier
Superstar
Zing said:
You know what Heeman, I'm coming dangerously close to buying a Denon receiver - almost exclusively for its processing and features - and selling my Integra 9.8. Perhaps we could arrange something mutually benefical.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why on Earth would you downgrade to a receiver? That's right, I said it, a good preamp is ALWAYS better than a similarly prices receiver.

What processing could you possibly need? Video should not be processed outside of the TV, and audio should pretty much never be processed other than to decode the signals and set levels. I am very confused.

Heeman --- you get what you pay for. Manufacturers assume that people buying preamps expect better performance, so preamp/processors tend to cost more than receivers which are all about getting features into one chassis at reasonable prices. Only the highest end receivers can be compared to a dedicates preamp/processor, but the high end receivers rightfully cost more than similar performing preamps.
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
Zing said:
soundhound said:
Also, some receivers have preamp outputs which serve the same purpose.
I seem to recall a post from nelmr where he mentioned the voltage at the preamp outs on a receiver was lower than it is on a dedicated pre/pro. I'll be damned if I can find it now. Can someone point me to it or address this issue here?

Is that true? Is that one of the benefits to using an actual pre/pro over a receiver with preamp outs?

The voltage output is whatever the user wants it to be depending on the setting of the main volume control and individual channel trims. The "spec" voltage out is just an arbitrary number under a particular set of circumstances which doesn't mean much in the real world. If nelmr had insufficient voltage out to drive his power amps to enough output even with the main volume control all the way up, he should have increased the individual channel trims so that the main volume control is approximately at the 2:00 position at 75dB from the receiver test tone or a DVD/Blu-Ray test disc. Most channel trims I've seen have at least 10dB above the nominal "0dB".

Also, many "pre/pros" are simply the corresponding receiver with the power amps left out.
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
Flint said:
Zing said:
You know what Heeman, I'm coming dangerously close to buying a Denon receiver - almost exclusively for its processing and features - and selling my Integra 9.8. Perhaps we could arrange something mutually benefical.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why on Earth would you downgrade to a receiver? That's right, I said it, a good preamp is ALWAYS better than a similarly prices receiver.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, many "preamp/processors" are merely a receiver with the power amps left out. A user is wise to try to find out if this is in fact the case before buying that "preamp/processor". One example of this state of affairs was the Outlaw Audio 990 preamp, which was just the preamp section from a Sherwood Newcastle receiver.
 

Flint

Dog Faced Pony Soldier
Superstar
I was trying to imply with the price comment (ignoring the typo), that a good preamp generally costs more than the preamp section of a receiver.
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
Flint said:
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why on Earth would you downgrade to a receiver?


I could use the receiver to power my surround speakers and thereby eliminate the need for one of my amps. I think you would agree that a $900 Parasound Halo A23 is a complete waste on surround channels.

The Denon in particular has HDCD decoding and a proprietary analog processing (Advanced AL24) that my Integra doesn't and that I'd like to have. It also has a feature called Personal Memory that saves configuration settings based on the soundfield and source input selected as opposed to one-size-fits-all that I really miss having.

I'd be able to run my sub hot for movie codecs and never have to adjust it while keeping it perfectly balanced with the other speakers when in Stereo mode for music. The same applies to the crossover settings too. I prefer a lower point when listening to music than I do when watching movies.
 

heeman

Well-Known Member
Famous
So Flint,

You know my situation upgrading from a 2.1 to a 5.1.

I have the speaker situation under control, but really understand the advantage of seperates.

In with the world of used amps out there, I would like to find a good pre/processor and be done, however the Onkyo TX NR708 has all the pre outs I need and could add seperates later.

I hate to buy a receiver, if I could buy a comprable Serperate.

What do you recommend?
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
soundhound said:
Like I mentioned in my previous post, many "preamp/processors" are merely a receiver with the power amps left out. A user is wise to try to find out if this is in fact the case before buying that "preamp/processor".
We determined, a number of years ago, that the Pre/Pros from Integra and Onkyo Pro - despite their low prices (relative to, say, Anthem and Lexicon) - were not just receivers without amp modules. They are clearly designed from the ground up to be pre/pros.
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
Zing said:
soundhound said:
Like I mentioned in my previous post, many "preamp/processors" are merely a receiver with the power amps left out. A user is wise to try to find out if this is in fact the case before buying that "preamp/processor".
We determined, a number of years ago, that the Pre/Pros from Integra and Onkyo Pro - despite their low prices (relative to, say, Anthem and Lexicon) - were not just receivers without amp modules. They are clearly designed from the ground up to be pre/pros.


How was that determined? Were the units actually torn down by someone who knew what he/she was looking for? I mention this because its essentially impossible to tell without inspecting the circuit boards and components.
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
soundhound said:
How was that determined? Were the units actually torn down by someone who knew what he/she was looking for? I mention this because its essentially impossible to tell without inspecting the circuit boards and components.
Some of the early adopters of those components were suspicious about these too-good-to-be-true components so they did some dissecting, some photo taking and some comparing. To my knowledge, nothing was done "on the bench". If it was, I wasn't part of that discussion. But it was clear these components were something other than receivers sans amps.
 

mzpro5

Well-Known Member
Famous
If you want to wait 3 months (or is it 6 months or is it 9 months) you could always go with the new Outlaw pre/pro the 978. Of course no one is really sure of the timeline on that thing.
 

soundhound

Well-Known Member
Zing said:
soundhound said:
How was that determined? Were the units actually torn down by someone who knew what he/she was looking for? I mention this because its essentially impossible to tell without inspecting the circuit boards and components.
Some of the early adopters of those components were suspicious about these too-good-to-be-true components so they did some dissecting, some photo taking and some comparing. To my knowledge, nothing was done "on the bench". If it was, I wasn't part of that discussion. But it was clear these components were something other than receivers sans amps.

Again, were these people trained in electronics, and specifically in audio circuitry? I'm not trying to be a wiseguy, but I just know first hand how difficult it can be to discern circuit differences, PCB layouts etc.

For instance, a unit could have "different" circuit boards but still have the same exact circuit; all that might have been done is to use the same circuit on a different PCB layout. It's very common, and something I do sometimes.
 

Zing

Retired Admin
Famous
I don't know. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. We saw the inside of Onkyo pre/pro and the inside of an Onkyo receiver. The pre/pro had a better layout, better component isolation and more appropriate components for its intended purpose.
 
Top