Small Speaker Kool-Aid

[PaulyT]

I meant more like why those pursuing high-fi, including the sense of scale, at all costs and regardless of WAF and room size, don't all use planars.

In other words, why don't YOU use planars, if they're particularly good at giving the sense of scale? Is it because of these other drawbacks - lower SPL at low freq, dipole radiation, etc.?


And yeah, TT, I remember those early (to me) discussions! And the previous incarnation of this thread.

 

[soundhound]

I meant more like why those pursuing high-fi, including the sense of scale, at all costs and regardless of WAF and room size, don't all use planars.

In other words, why don't YOU use planars, if they're particularly good at giving the sense of scale? Is it because of these other drawbacks - lower SPL at low freq, dipole radiation, etc.?


And yeah, TT, I remember those early (to me) discussions! And the previous incarnation of this thread.

If you're referring to me, I don't use planars because they don't have the dynamic capabilities of horns (not even close), they don't have the efficiency to allow SET type amplification, and they don't have the controlled dispersion of a horn system. Plus, as noted before, they run out of steam from the mid-bass on down. Projecting a good sense of scale also includes dynamic capability and good transient response (electrostatics and planars are good at transients but poor at dynamics).

Horns have dynamic capabilities better than any other type of speakers and transient response as good or better than electrostatics and planars, so for me they provide all that is needed to project a believable sense of scale.

The big disadvantage to horns is that it is difficult to make them "not sound like horns" in the pejorative sense. It can be done very successfully, but it takes some knowledge to do it.

 

[MatthewB]

SH, I agree with you on that sense of scale and bigger speakers. I have a question though. Say in theory you were to take excellant bookshelf speakers and attach to each speaker a small mid bass sub or smallish regular sub to each speaker. Would this not in effect do just as good a job or in some cases a better job than an all in one tower speaker with a 12" passive woofer. The reason I ask is I have attached two small Deftech subs to help achieve mid bass (down to 40hz) on my center channel and my rear channel speakers which by themselves can't even come close to 40hz, but with the help of the two smaller subs (used as mid bass modules) they acheive that "punch" I am looking for.

Also by adding subs to each channel (although not WAF approved or cheap) I feel with great bookshelves to handle just the mid range and upper frequencies and the mid bass subs using their own internal amp and designed for mid bass reproduction that in theory it should do a pretty good job and be smaller than say my 80's Pioneer tower speakers with 12" woofers.

 

[soundhound]

The larger the radiating area, the more a speaker will project a better sense of scale, and I would imagine that this would also include using a sub for each speaker ***if it matches sonically***, but keep in mind that the important midrange will still be projected by a small driver; and the ear can sense that.

But generally, I find that any speaker which has smaller drivers than 15" not satisfying ***to me*** as far as projecting a good sense of scale, and of course horns, because of the large radiating area of the mouth of the horn, project a very good sense of scale.

Its a continuous spectrum with teeny tiny Bose speakers on the small end and big horns on the large end; where along that continuum you find a satisfying sense of scale is up to you.

I guess all of this flies in the face of the "theoretical ideal" speaker in some people's opinion, and one which can never exist, that being sound coming from an infinitely small point source in space radiating in all directions. To me, that would sound like sound coming from a soda straw..... Musicians are not infinitely small point sources in space....

 

[Dentman]

Next thing you know you'll be telling these guys there is more to a good sounding speakers then a flat respoce and midrage. As much as I hate the idea of moving back GA and the bible belt, I am looking forward to getting my old room back and a nice used ugly pair of horns. I think I can pull off an English Pub theam and still have a big set of LaScalla's lurking in the corners. :music-rockout:

 

[soundhound]

Next thing you know you'll be telling these guys there is more to a good sounding speakers then a flat respoce and midrage. As much as I hate the idea of moving back GA and the bible belt, I am looking forward to getting my old room back and a nice used ugly pair of horns. I think I can pull off an English Pub theam and still have a big set of LaScalla's lurking in the corners. :music-rockout:

Flat response and good midrange is good, BUT.....BIG Frequency response and midrange is even better! :happy-smileygiantred:

 

[TitaniumTroy]

SH, where do dynamic dipole speakers fit in the mix like these by Jamo? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jamo/909.html As they would not be limited by excursion like my Magnepan's. As pertaining to the bass and mid bass and midrange, regarding a sense of scale. Also how low can your VOTT bass go when no subwoofer is used?

 

[DIYer]

Also how low can your VOTT bass go when no subwoofer is used?

It's rated to 35Hz. http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/a ... /page2.jpg

 

[soundhound]

SH, where do dynamic dipole speakers fit in the mix like these by Jamo? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jamo/909.html As they would not be limited by excursion like my Magnepan's. As pertaining to the bass and mid bass and midrange, regarding a sense of scale. Also how low can your VOTT bass go when no subwoofer is used?

I have never heard the Jamo speakers, but in general, the larger the surface radiating area, the larger sense of scale from my experience. But keep in mind that when I talk about a system which can deliver a realistic sense of scale (again in my opinion), I'm talking about hunking BIG speakers, preferably horn loaded of a size at least comparable to the VOTTs or the larger vintage Klipsch horns. Everything down from there has a diminshed sense of scale, regardless of the technology employed ***in my opinion***.

In a horn, the effective radiating area is the size of the mouth of the horn, regardless of the size of the driver feeding it, so you can see that would be big indeed for the larger horns.

Depending on what level you use as a cutoff, my VOTTs can go down to either 30Hz (optimistic) or 60Hz (conservative). The short horn is effective down to about 100Hz. I currently cross them over to my subs at 100Hz (24dB/octave) which solves a room node problem I've had. The JBL subs can easily go up to 100Hz and beyond.

The VOTTs were literally designed to be used behind the screen in a movie theater. At the time of their design, most optical movie soundtracks didn't go much lower than 60Hz - all this bass stuff didn't happen until the 1970s, and the VOTTs were designed in the early 1950s. Even the HUGE A-1 VOTT speaker which had as many as ***SIX*** 15" drivers wasn't capable of much bass below maybe 50-60Hz, but bass extension is only one aspect of a good sense of scale.

 

[malsackj]

In a discussion with Flint on the live sound aspect. He brought up the issue of Wings.

In the picture of the large Altec VOT speaker the wings on the left and right are there to help solidify the base energy and might add 6 db around the size of the wing. We were talking about 30 inches for my EV cabinet and it was figured to be around 90 inches in total width. This made the working frequency around 40 hz. Adding the wings on to my little bookselves with 8 inch wide and as tall on a JBL 2500 might not add enough to give the scale improvement, or have the approval from the Wife factor. Disguise as a picture frame on each side?

 

[malsackj]

The reinforcement is based on the 1/4 wavelength, not the full wavelength. So, if the full wavelength for 30in is 440, then there will be reinforcement as low as 110Hz. If you put a 30in wing on the left and a 30in wing on the right, they will recult in a "baffle" which is 90in wide. 90in is the wavelength at about 150Hz. That means there will be reinforcement to as low as 35Hz.

The above is a clip from the discussion that I had with Flint and we would have to test and calculate for the low end of the bookselves mine are running around 80 hz.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

I have a wing on the inner side, that is the same width as my Magnepan speakers for bass reinforcement. They are repurposed wood from Habit for Humanity, doesn't get cheaper than that. When I talked to Flint in Chicago he thought it I might like it more than upgrading my subwoofer, and he was correct.

I want try using a second wing, however I have concerns it might change the sound of the rear wave nature of the dipole, too much. So I will try different sizes or maybe a triangle shape to still get the ambience I like, BTW my wings are folded back due to my narrow listening room.

Thank Flint. bscene-drinkingcheers:

Question, will a wing wider than the width of my speaker lower the base limit even more? Is there a point of diminishing return.

 

[soundhound]

In a discussion with Flint on the live sound aspect. He brought up the issue of Wings.

In the picture of the large Altec VOT speaker the wings on the left and right are there to help solidify the base energy and might add 6 db around the size of the wing. We were talking about 30 inches for my EV cabinet and it was figured to be around 90 inches in total width. This made the working frequency around 40 hz. Adding the wings on to my little bookselves with 8 inch wide and as tall on a JBL 2500 might not add enough to give the scale improvement, or have the approval from the Wife factor. Disguise as a picture frame on each side?

Adding wings to a home speaker won't appreciably help since they would have to be pretty big. Better to just place the speaker near a wall.

 

[Flint]

malsackj and I were speaking about a PA subwoofer for outdoor or very large venue space.

 

[soundhound]

malsackj and I were speaking about a PA subwoofer for outdoor or very large venue space.

Then you know the answer to the question.

 

[TKoP]

I'm working on fuzzy memory right now, but I thought the small vs. big speaker had to do more with speakers at the same price point. For a speaker at the $500/pr price point, your average "bookshelf" speaker would be "better" than a "full sized" speaker. You might get more of the scale with the bigger speaker, but you would have a better mid and upper range. And when you included a sub in the mix, the sense of scale was even minimized even more.

I also thought that there was a general sense of agreement that when you got into the "hi-fi" and price wasn't included in the equation, that a full sized speaker was going to be better.

 

[DIYer]

You may be referring to floor stander vs bookshelf speakers. I think this argument has more to do with the speaker driver size.

 

[yromj]

TKoP's comments are generally correct, according to my memory as well. (At least for the reason the small speaker Kool-Aid was poured.) To me it always had to with the practical vs. the ideal.

Real-world limitations, with budget & space constraints being the primary two, usually keep people from achieving the ideal. The question then becomes, "How do I achieve the best I can, given my situation?" Sacrifices are a given in that situation.

I don't believe anyone is under the impression that a small speaker can do everything as well as a larger speaker; but, for a person with a 15'x20' room and a $5k budget (for the entire system), a set of nice bookshelves is a very appealing option.

John

 

[Orbison]

TKoP's comments are generally correct, according to my memory as well. (At least for the reason the small speaker Kool-Aid was poured.) To me it always had to with the practical vs. the ideal.

Real-world limitations, with budget & space constraints being the primary two, usually keep people from achieving the ideal. The question then becomes, "How do I achieve the best I can, given my situation?" Sacrifices are a given in that situation.

I don't believe anyone is under the impression that a small speaker can do everything as well as a larger speaker; but, for a person with a 15'x20' room and a $5k budget (for the entire system), a set of nice bookshelves is a very appealing option.

John

:text-goodpost:

 

[Batman]

TKoP's comments are generally correct, according to my memory as well. (At least for the reason the small speaker Kool-Aid was poured.) To me it always had to with the practical vs. the ideal.

Real-world limitations, with budget & space constraints being the primary two, usually keep people from achieving the ideal. The question then becomes, "How do I achieve the best I can, given my situation?" Sacrifices are a given in that situation.

I don't believe anyone is under the impression that a small speaker can do everything as well as a larger speaker; but, for a person with a 15'x20' room and a $5k budget (for the entire system), a set of nice bookshelves is a very appealing option.

John

:text-+1: BUT at that price point the market is a relative free-for-all so then you also have the marketing kool-aid bordering on snake-oil in a lot of cases...

Great post though!