New Sandy Gross speaker company startup
- Thread starter Orbison
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bscene-buttred: :happy-smileygiantred:
To-May-Toe, Toe-Ma-Toe same difference. Actually I hate what DT has done to the new BP line of speakers, but want to hear the new Tritons.
Oh and Jeff after you left, Razz really dipped into the Captain, I knew he was drunk when he declared my speakers were just as good as his Dynaudios. :happy-smileygiantred:
Oh and Jeff after you left, Razz really dipped into the Captain, I knew he was drunk when he declared my speakers were just as good as his Dynaudios. :happy-smileygiantred:
D
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Botch said::text-bump:
The full 5.0 (hah!) Surround System is reviewed in April's Home Theater: Top Pick and 5/5 stars in all three categories, Performance, Value, and Build Quality. They really raved about the system. Full-up its $3,500, exactly what I paid for my Monitor Audios. I'd really like a chance to hear these things, maybe a motorcycle road trip thru Colorado this summer?
EDIT: the article isn't posted on HT's website yet, I'll post a link when they do.
I happened to buy a copy of that edition of HT yesterday and read the article with interest. However I was left somewhat confused. I'll explain.
First some quotations:
"The Triton Twos not only don't need a subwoofer, they'll send most standalone subs running home to mommy with their power cord between their legs."
"...the DSP circuitry dynamically controls the operating parameters of the subwoofer system..."
"Although there is an LFE input on the back of each Triton Two, GoldenEar recommends that you hook up the speakers using speaker level and run t5hem as full range in your bass-management parameters."
"So what you essentially get is a pair of 1,200-watt subwoofers with a total of four active and four passive drivers - and no separate boxes to find a space in your room for."
"Speaking of explosions, in U571...the depth charges were exceptionally moving - literally. They were some of the best I've heard or felt. The subs in the Triton Two towers are seemingly unstoppable. They sound both powerful, which is the easier thing to do, and controlled, something that isn't easy. Even though the Triton Two isn't tiny, it borders on the unbelievable that a pair of speakers this size can produce bass like this."
Ok. So you've probably noticed that all of the quotes focus on the woofer / subwoofer / bass claims. Why? Well check out the sidebar "HT Labs Measure."
My eyes first zoomed in on the frequency response curves. After having first read the article, I thought maybe someone had mislabeled the x-axis because 55 Hz is right about where the response makes its sharp turn downwards. The text says it hits -3dB at 44 Hz and -6dB at 36 Hz.
Now don't get me wrong. That's not bad bass response for most speakers in this day and age. And in the real world there will be some room gain etc. to be had. But that performance is not in keeping with the quotations above - in my opinion. It seems to me that it's missing an octave of range off the bottom end - if it truly has any claims to "subwoofer" status. In all of our discussions about great subs and their performance, we're really talking about -3dB points down in the 18-20 Hz range, are we not?
Musically, with the exception of organ music and synth stuff, I suspect that they'll do very well. But for movies, with true LFE?
I'm only picking on that one aspect of these speakers. They could very well be truly exceptional for a lot of other reasons. But I'm really having trouble relating claims to measured performance in this case.
ps. I know I sound like a broken record when I keep referring to my decades-old Koss speakers, but I'll do so again for comparison sake to illustrate my point. The smallest Koss in my collection are the CM/1010s. They have a claimed -3dB of 35 Hz. I tend to believe it because for the other two large CM speakers (the 1020 and the 1030) I have test reports that show results that meet or better Koss' claims. So I give the 1010s the benefit of any doubt. I also believe it based on extensive listening. For just about any type of music they work very well. So it would not be a stretch to assume the same for the Triton Two. However when I mated the 1010s with an SVS sub, crossed things over at 40Hz, it made a pretty significant difference, and a huge difference with some recordings (like Soundhound's organ demo.) Which is why I'm really skeptical about some of the claims in the article, especially the one about sending subwoofers home to mommy!
Jeff Mackwood
There is a trend in speaker companies, such as this one, to make bass an effect, not a real accurate reproduction. Much like the Bose Acoustimas bass module from the 1980s, these speakers produce huge amounts of output int the 35Hz to 80Hz range with ease and often with a boosted output to make sure everyone in the room knows what they can do in that range. I find this approach annoying, but completely understandable. Most soundtracks don't have all that much output below 30Hz. The ones which do go well into the nether-regions also have a ton of content in the 40Hz range to ensure people without ultra-deep subs get something for their money. If one's only perception of bass is the thuds from Jurasic Park (which were all in the 40Hz range), then these speakers will appear to be amazing in the reproduction of bass.
But that is all out of ignorance for those listeners. They do not realize what they are missing - which is just fine for them. I, however, know what they are missing and do not accept the notion that high output bass in the 40-60Hz range is real subwoofer bass. In my rig the "subwoofer" stops producing sound above 40Hz. It is a real SUB-woofer. Sometimes an Infrawoofer.
So, let the boys play with their pretend toys. I'll sit back and feel the bass they are missing.
But that is all out of ignorance for those listeners. They do not realize what they are missing - which is just fine for them. I, however, know what they are missing and do not accept the notion that high output bass in the 40-60Hz range is real subwoofer bass. In my rig the "subwoofer" stops producing sound above 40Hz. It is a real SUB-woofer. Sometimes an Infrawoofer.
So, let the boys play with their pretend toys. I'll sit back and feel the bass they are missing.
TitaniumTroy
Well-Known Member
Maybe Flint or somebody else can enlighten me, why does this speaker get such hyped up reviews and great press? I am not trying to bash this speaker per se, it probably does not sound horrible. But I can't imagine it sounds as good as the press it is getting, btw: S&V also mentioned the bass being deep, but at a much lower level. I think even The Absolute Sound gave it new product of 2011 at the CES Show or something like that. What's the marketing magic in Golden Ear?
Is it because Sandy Gross has a lot pull with the right people, or maybe they will do like Def Tech did with S&V, and they are going do a ton of advertising. Botch I would bet my paycheck your Monitor Audio speakers would win against these in a music only, sound quality contest. I think Batman has the right idea, that for home theatre they would probably give an interesting effect. Which in turn will probably sell a lot of speakers.
Is it because Sandy Gross has a lot pull with the right people, or maybe they will do like Def Tech did with S&V, and they are going do a ton of advertising. Botch I would bet my paycheck your Monitor Audio speakers would win against these in a music only, sound quality contest. I think Batman has the right idea, that for home theatre they would probably give an interesting effect. Which in turn will probably sell a lot of speakers.
TitaniumTroy said:
When you're willing to spend the kind of advertising dollars with audio/video magazines that Def Tech, and Golden Ear budgets, magazine will return the favor many fold. There's not one Def Tech or Golden Ear product that doesn't get a "top pick" when reviewed in Home Theater Magazine.
The mighty dollar rules, Bose is a great example. As for the Monitor Audio vs Def Tech or Golden Ear, no contest, MA would mop the floor with either.
Rope
Still regularly perusing through HT mag and S&V it's pretty amazing, Golden Ear has pretty much taken up all of DefTechs ad space. I think that speaks volumes...That said, there'd be a helluva lot less speaker mfrs out there if everybody agreed on what sounded good... :twocents-mytwocents:
TitaniumTroy
Well-Known Member
Well who would't want to hear a 50k giant killer.
"My experience of listening with them paralleled previous encounters with no-holds-barred speakers—ones priced upwards
of $50,000."
– Al Griffin, Sound & Vision Magazine
Ummm righttttttt, I think not :liar:
Being bipolar you have approx. twice as many drivers doubling part of your raw materials cost. Meaning you have to source or make parts that are not as high quality to compete at a given price point.
"My experience of listening with them paralleled previous encounters with no-holds-barred speakers—ones priced upwards
of $50,000."
– Al Griffin, Sound & Vision Magazine
Ummm righttttttt, I think not :liar:
Being bipolar you have approx. twice as many drivers doubling part of your raw materials cost. Meaning you have to source or make parts that are not as high quality to compete at a given price point.
The problem with DefTech is that they are very hard to place to get great sound because of the bi-polar design. As mentioned any speaker with a built in sub should always be considered MBM's at best and no matter what any review or company claim any out board sub will easily beat a speaker with an internal "sub".
Reporters and reviewers get paid to write about new things, not old stuff everyone already knows everything there is to know about. Readers don't buy magazine's or visit technical websites to learn what they already know. Anything new is worth writing about. Anything new which performs better than other new stuff is better. Anything new which will be getting lots of buzz and attention in general is the best. The amount of investment into marketing these speakers means everyone will hear about them, so magazines and reporters will want to catch that wave and claim they were first to "tell you so."
TitaniumTroy said:
That statement is not necessarily correct, IMO. Just like the price of the finished loudspeaker, the cost of the individual drivers doesn't guarantee good quality sound. The most expensive drivers can sometimes be outperformed by cheaper, better designed ones. And the performance & design of the crossover is like that, too. Expensive caps don't guarantee better crossover performance. Driver tests and crossover design articles at the Zaph Audio website support my opinion. :twocents-mytwocents: http://www.zaphaudio.com/
If some of you don't like Def Tech speakers, fair enough. Hopefully you base those opinions on actually having heard them. I agree that many product reviews in magazines are worthless, but that doesn't necessarily mean the speakers they like are bad.
Audio/Video magazines make there lions share of revenue from advertisers, and advertisers such as Def Tech or Golden Ear spend multiple thousands on full page ads, in many cases 2-3 pages. When you, as a magazine owner, stand to loose that kind of revenue due to a poor review, or retain that revenue for a pre specified period of time for a "Top Pick" review, what do you do? Appears to be a conflict of interest.
Geoffery Morrison is possibly the most up front reviewer I've had the pleasure of reading reviews from. He continually looses his job because he tells it exactly like he hears or sees it. If it's junk, he say's so, and vice versa.
What consumers need to ask themselves; Am I buying a well thought out product with the R&D, materials, build quality, customer support and sonic quality to justify the asking price, or am I buying advertising?"
Rope
Geoffery Morrison is possibly the most up front reviewer I've had the pleasure of reading reviews from. He continually looses his job because he tells it exactly like he hears or sees it. If it's junk, he say's so, and vice versa.
What consumers need to ask themselves; Am I buying a well thought out product with the R&D, materials, build quality, customer support and sonic quality to justify the asking price, or am I buying advertising?"
Rope
That's my gripe with reviews, if somebody gives an honest review they risk losing their job or what Boss did with Consumer Reports when they (GASP!!!!) gave real world frequency response and got sued for doing it. CR caved and now are very neutral in what they review. What CR should have done is printed a one page ad in the next issue showing a hairy man bent over, pants around his ankles with a sign saying, "Bose, Kiss It Bitches"
As for Def Tech I love the sound quality with movies. I don't like the retail prices but considering I bought all my DT speakers close to 70% off retail price. I am amazed at the quality of sound I have for the price I paid. He k I got my BP7001's retail for 5,500.00 before taxes out the door brand new for 1,600.00 including taxes. That is what got me started on DT and I haven't regretted it once.
MatthewB said:
I don't know if that would even matter. The reason why is I remember a time I demoed a pair of Dynaudio towers (Contours, 3.0). They seemed to go a lot deeper than my Klipsch/DefTech setup I was running. The Contours were rated down to 28Hz. Sure the Contours are not powered towers with a built in sub, but we are always told ideal is to get the sub were it sounds like an extension to the mains. If that's the case, then I would think a tower vs a built in sub tower wouldn't matter. Matter of fact, the powered tower should give you more setup flexibility than the conventional tower.
My sub is "rated" down to 13Hz and was a top pick in its day (1994 Powerfield 1500). I know it won't play that deep as I thought an entry level SVS bested it at best. I do think Def Tech is no different, and probably Golden Ear as well, as some of these other companies that suck up to the mags for good reviews. That's the main reason why I no longer read the mags and just get my info here if I need it. Still, the sub I have has been a great little performing sub. If I knew as much back then as I do now, I probably would have never bought it, but I don't regret it either.
Oh and Bryan if I were you I would use them as side surround speakers in bipolar mode just face the speaker so the drivers face forward and backward from your sitting position and not aimed at you. Everyone who has done this has loved the immersive diffused sound they produce as opposed to have them aimed at you. They are also rated to go just as low as the the powered towers without the built in sub.